myxa
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Posts posted by myxa
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Moving this thread to Off-Topic because it's well past the point where it is on-topic!
That's not true. We might not be discussing the piracy thread but we are still talking about piracy here and my thoughts of the "pirate" on it.
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Do you have any substantial facts, articles, studies that support your claim? Or are you just talking out of your rear?
Nothing a quick google can't solve:
http://carpanatomy.earlhaig.ca/the-non-existent-threat-of-online-piracy-may-actually-help-sales
http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-piracy-boosts-music-sales-study-finds-120517/
http://www.digital-digest.com/news-63366-New-Research-Pre-Release-Piracy-Helps-Album-Sales.html
http://www.geek.com/articles/news/judge-decides-piracy-may-boost-sales-2011113/
There are more but if you are interested go google yourself
Now let me ask you for the links to the studies proving the contrary? Please no studies done by or funded by MPAA and alike.
Either way, you not buying their games certainly didn't help.
Talking about "talking out of your rear"... Where exactly did I say I didn't buy their games? In fact I have the Supreme Commander 1 collection on steam.
Have you read the lawsuit against him? Or any articles around his arrests? The majority of traffic came from copyrighted material, his own bonus-program on megaupload promoted sharing "hot" items like newly released movies and games.
But of course it's not valid in your lala-land where pirates are the good guys and not the petty little thieves they actually are
This doesn't change the fact that he sold file-hosting. He shouldn't be held responsible for what users of his website do just like your ISP is not responsible for what sites you browse.
Really? When? Where? got an URL? Or talking out of your rear again? Ubisoft blames piracy for their copyright protection (permanent connectivity to uPlay, for example) not their games. Because a publisher doesn't produce games, they publish them. Studios produce games.
Sorry, didn't phrase it right. I meant Ubisoft always used piracy an an excuse for lost sales, not seeing that quality of their games is to blame (and DRM as you point out).
Example for what?
An example of the game that:
1) has high budget
2) uses CryEngine3 (AAA - graphics)
3) is Indie Dev
4) took the abandoned genre and tries to make something great.
5) has a big market
Other examples of high profile Indie devs are my favorite CD Project RED and Tripwire. Hell, you can even put Valve here. Indie development is not just niche market.
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The point shouldn't be *THAT* they make a lot of money but "How much more would they sell if it was impossible to obtain illegal working copies of the software".
Or how much less. Depends on your perspective.
Because they are still selling enough games. I thought that much was obvious?
Yes, but they claim they are "forced" to leave the PC market due to piracy. I saw people say THQ went bankrupt because of piracy.
Of course, this was no way connected to the amount of multimillion-dollar-salary-monkies sitting on the company's back or the quality of games produced.
You should google "Kim Schmitz" or "Kim Dotcom". He built his empire around distributing copyrighted material over his Megaupload sites. Also, here in Europe "kino.to" and "moviex2k.to" (or something like that) also earn their living by offering access to copyrighted material.
Not a valid argument. He sold filehosting. nothing more - nothing less. Also not sure why you put this here?
Legitimate or not, Ubisoft's "Ghost recon warrior" is now a F2P shooter instead of a "real" game. Ubisoft blames piracy.
Securom, DVD checks and all these "neat" things wouldn't be necessary if piracy wasn't a concern.
Ubisoft always blamed piracy for the downright terrible quality of their games. The only good ghost recon is the first one (and desert siege). I don't care even if they release it free I won't download it. Not worth the traffic (just like most of their games)
Indie Devs have a smaller budget, less polished graphics and cater to a much smaller user base than Call of Duty 27 does. Because of these 3 factors (mostly the smaller budget) Indie devs can occupy niche markets and still get some money at the end of the day.
Larger Publishers simply do not have the ability to create a game with a market of maybe 250k people because said publishers have investors sitting on their back that want to have a sufficiently high/fast return of investment.
Indie Devs are NOT born out of piracy, they are born out of more and niche markets.
I would be interested to read what made you think that.
Publisher abandon PC scene due to "high piracy". Thanks to that Indies do not need to go head to head with them. Less big publishers = More indie devs.
As an example here is Star Citizen. The long forgotten Space Sim genre that made this possible.
btw its budget is $7,764,908
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Arguably that's not a second side. it can still be part of the other side across the table from you. All you do is point to them and try to push your premise (axiom?) that they are bad, that they are worse than pirates. You don't really want to explore any of the concequnces/effects piracy has on those things. You even almost scolded me for making you think about that.
Ok. Explore. Show me what are the consequences and effects of piracy.
So nothing basically? Just feeding on the apathy towards people with big salaries? It's not fair, they should share some of that with me!
supervising merger and dealing with acquisitions is nothing to you?
PS: I just noticed something. You don't have a single post outside this thread. Is piracy all you care about?
I searched for your username on anti-racism forum and didn't find a single post... Are you a racist?
It's interesting how long this thread has been kept alive. Is it just you or is there someone else also keeping it alive when you aren't?
This might come as a shock to you but... that someone... is you.
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Ok. and since you don't want to fix this problem why mention it? Does the industry being a problem somehow motivate you to cause more problems? I don't see the correlation why is piracy ok because of a problem that may or may not be made worse by piracy?
I mention the problem to "get it out on the table". To make people at least accept there is a second side to piracy. To make them compare the "piracy is killing the PC game industry" statements and publishers salaries. To make them question themselves - if pirates steal sales, why do publishers get richer and pirates don't? Why are Indie developers on the scene and growing in numbers?
Why are we talking about a problem in this thread if we are forbidden to discuss any effects on it and/or solutions to it?
This forum has a quote function. I can use that it I want to quote you word for word. Obviously I was paraphrasing it the way I understood you. quotatuionmarks also has another function:
Obvious to me. Obvious to you. Not so obvious to someone reading our posts. Moreover, you understood me wrong and I don't agree with your paraphrased sentence (the part about "poor, underpaid programers and artists")
Have you any Idea what he does for a living? not the hallmarks that is listed on his wikipedia page. I'm wonder if you know what his daily workload, responsibilities etc is? Do you know why any of the big top guys in any company make a lot of money? (Truthfully I don't... but I assume there are capitalistic reasons for it.)
I know he doesn't develop games. If I had to guess he dealt with assets and its acquisitions. I'm pretty sure he supervised Activision and Blizzard merger.
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Good luck on that judgement. LINK
Another commercial bully. We had a lot of those. They don't stand much chance in court until new bill regulating file sharing comes out. As a matter of fact they know that so they threaten you but never actually do take you to court if you don't pay up.
What is the problem? piracy or high priced games and Bobbys high salary? You are the one that brought up both of the latter.The whole industry as I've said before.
I was under the impression that you were saying piracy is ok based on that you dislike "people like Kotick exploiting poor underpaid programmers and artists"... That you don't see any fault with stealing from big companies that make a lot of money, because they make a lot of money and a percieved imbalance to where the money goes..
When you put a sentence in these "" that means you are quoting someone. I didn't say the above so who are you quoting?
PS. I see big fault with people stealing from others be it big companies or not.. but what does it have to do with file-sharing?
And yes, I do dislike Kotick getting rich and not the person who developed the game.
Yes, I wasn't talking about indie devs. I was talking about the poor guys that gets exploited under a big publisher. Do you do anything for them? You seemed to use how publishers treated them as an excuse for why piracy is ok, or at least a lesser evil. If they are mistreated what do you do for them?
*sigh*. I don't need excuse for piracy to be ok. How about you sit down for a minute and try to understand my point of view before arguing with me?
What you are getting at with all that "Do you do anything for them". No I don't. Do you? It's not like they are the bums on the street.
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Does piracy solve any of those problems or make it worse?
Does you getting upset about Kotick help in any way? Does justifying his salary for him to the shareholders help in any way?
Do you do anything to support these cheated artists and programmers?
This topic does not aim to solve the "problem". I was just expressing my thoughts on Piracy post Chris made.
And yes, I do support Indie devs - do I need to do something more?
Speculation and false one at that.
Oh OK, if you say so
If the high prices are due to greed or inefficiency of large publishers/development companies then indies will soon put them out of business. Just common market rules applied here. Again: no piracy needed.
This is not as simple as you think. Big publishers = big money = bigger budget. Indies don't have such luxury.
There is nothing forcing the developer to have a publisher. There are plenty of indie developers out there making good profits without the help of publishers. Kickstarter is one major (and lawfull) way of supporting indie development. No need for piracy.
Many making good profits? Without a publisher? I would really like to know a couple.
I share your Kickstarter (and greenlight ) optimism. Let's keep our fingers crossed.
Any indie developer is also free to put their product on "price-free-distribution-networks". But it is their choice. No need of force-help here as most developers are intelligent enough to make their own judgement.
It's their choice to distribute it the way they like. It's my choice to buy/download/ignore it. I'm intelligent enough to make my own judgement.
The piracy as a term refers not only to downloading, but the production of the pirated material. So in Canada piracy (which is the issue referred here) is also unlawfull. So myxa still needs to justify piracy.
Even the downloading part is generally not legal in the western countries. It might be legal for myxa, but not for the persons from other countries.
Please, we're not talking about reproduction here.
Also let me ask you this. Are your morals that flexible? You say the law justifies it all. If you travel to a country where downloading is legal will you bend your morals to reflect that?
I'll just assume you are confused as to what morality actually means. Look it up.
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Also, this whole line about how pirates buy good games from cool developers like CD Projekt is nonsense. They estimate The Witcher 2 was pirated several million times.
I bought it on day 1. Then I torrented it. I downloaded about three different releases cause some didn't work or were not the versions I was looking for. Problem?
You are still missing the point Kruxed.No matter how many excuses you try to throw into the conversation I still can't say you have provided any that justify piracy.
Haha. That's dense. I don't even see why piracy needs justification. The "piracy = bad" notion you try to pass as an axiom is what needs justification.
Think about it guys, you are trying to convince your fellow gamers to pay big money for not-so-good products and justifying it with some sort of questionable morals. The majority of the pirates are created by the unreasonably expensive games out there (IMO) which are the cause of faulty game industry where honest programers and artists are forced to give away most of their profits to publishers and people like Robert Kotick who made $1 mil in salary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kotick).
Put all your grudge where it belongs.
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mercy,
Although I do support the idea with few concerns.
Content Updates. This is good idea. I think publishers who release new content are awesome especially when they think this content was supposed to be there in the first place but was somehow overlooked or maybe didn't make due to time restrictions or otherwise. Now if Content Updates become something of the norm as you put it to be I'm afraid that will decrease the quality of the game moving forward. Risk is something the developer and publisher try to avoid so these Content Updates are destined to be planned ahead even before the game is out. Eventually, we might get something like this (many DLC games implement this now):
- Hey, this side mission is awesome. Why don't we cut it out and release it after as a DLC/Content Update?
or
- Hey, this turned out to be a pretty lengthy game, way over x hours we initially estimated, why not cut out some and release it after?
Agreed, it might not be that extreme today with DLC but that is a norm to release a game with very few maps and add more later on.
I also don't like the weapon/item Content update. When the game is beta it is usually tested for balance. Releasing a new weapon will endanger unbalancing the game completely.
As for restructuring the EXE. Seems like a lot of work for every patch. Also Chris mentioned he doesn't want DRM on the game so I'm sure he will not want it on all the updates.
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MasterArmadillo,
You seem to make very strong points in your post. What are you thoughts on Karl Marx and capitalism issues discussed above? I'm sure we would ALL like to read what you have to say.
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I've sat and tried to figure out an example of someone buying music first and then pirating it. If you pirate first that leaves you an option to buy it later, or buy the next album, or buy a song of same genre. Already owning a song and then pirating the same song? How would that promote sales?
I agree that studies cannot be taken as concrete proof and the term "file-sharers" does not necessary mean pirates. If it's uncertain that piracy does good or harm then why not cancel it out from both sides of the equation.
What we'll be left with is (left side no piracy, right side with piracy)
customers = customers + potential customers (pirates)
Unless you want to argue that pirating does not get more people aware of the game and that pirates spend money on games.
Edit: eh. I even confused myself with my formula, lol. Disregard.
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Myxa - the problem with studies like that is that they don't prove whether those people would be spending even more money on those things if they didn't do piracy.
The more you hear the more you buy. I think this is completely logical. If I haven't downloaded starcraft 1 I'd never buy the second one. If I never played Dune 2 I'd probably never even bother with starcraft.
I missed out on a lot of good RPGs (like diablo, icewind dale etc) back in a day because I thought RPGs are not my thing until I downloaded and played one.
If we didn't have piracy what would I be playing? I can't even imagine that, probably soccer or something.
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Very well put post, Nixcalo.
It is my idea that most pirates either steal software and they don't care a damn about the software developer, so they are basically selfish bums, or they do appreciate a good job and later decide to reward that developer buying this game or next (lets say 99%vs. 1%). Both kinds know (and SHOULD) that they are acting wrongly; at least one feels the little responsability of mitigating the harm done, but it's something like stealing an apple from a store and, if you like it, strolling by the following day and leaving the price discreetly over the counter and leaving. Both are thiefs, sorry, there is no other word or moral justification save selfish reasons only.Just a little something I would like to point out is:
A comprehensive report published by the Dutch Institution for Information Law and CentERdata reveals that compared to the rest of the population, file-sharers are more likely to pay for movies, books, games, concerts and box office tickets.http://torrentfreak.com/file-sharers-buy-more-movies-121018/
Nice to see someone posting on the subject for a change.
Edit: another one:
One of the most comprehensive studies into media sharing and consumption habits in the United States and Germany reveals that file-sharers buy 30% more music than their non-sharing counterparts. The result confirms that file-sharers are actually the music industry’s best customers.http://torrentfreak.com/file-sharers-buy-30-more-music-than-non-p2p-peers-121015/
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You are arguing that it's righteous in itself to break the spirit of the law even in what copyright was specifically created to address and use publicity as a free excuse. That is BS. If you don't agree with copyright in itself, join the next protest.
You have not checked out the links, did you? ))).
As for the spirit of the law, I believe the spirit of the law was to prevent one PROFITING from someone else's work and I support that.
If you think you have an excuse, at least don't thump it around trying to prove yourself in the right.One needs to be guilty of something to look for excuse.
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And you've been just as much of a wall when everyone else explained their anti-piracy position to you, too. Did you really think this was a good idea? Coming onto the forum of an indie game developer to preach the merits of stealing games? To a crowd that are almost entirely that guy's paying supporters, no less.
You have completely misunderstood the point of this topic. Believe it or not I have came here with good intentions and gave my thoughts on how this game can sell more and become popular (in my opinion, before you rage).
If you follow the course of the thread you'd notice that NOBODY, except Chris, commented on the points of my post.
You talk about me being a wall but you keep referring to copying as stealing when we, not just me, already explained to you why this is not the term you want to use.. Go figure.
Oh, and "piracy" has nothing to do with copying. That's war rhetoric by the content industry washing your brains. There are no "pirates" on the Internet, only "users."I actually wanted to point this in my initial post but I thought that would be too much. One step at the time
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myxa: I'm not.
So you, yourself, don't want to learn about the possible "facets" of the situation and yet you feel competent enough to draw graphs and explain the impact of piracy to others? "You are an amazing man, George Costanza"
The whole point of this topic was to focus on the possible positive sides of piracy in case you didn't notice. If I wanted to discuss the piracy as a whole I would post in "Feedback on Goldhawk Interactive & Piracy" thread.
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Because of a hundred reasons stated in this thread already. Your position is based on conjecture and does not consider all facets of the situation, naively centering on one over the others.
I have no interest in supporting it, only mentioning a few key facts that people seem to be forgetting or outright reversing.
Any stance on the Piracy is a conjecture. Here are some support reading if you are interested:
http://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2010/11/why-piracy-is-good-for-innovation.html
http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-may-boost-sales-111102/
http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-piracy-boosts-music-sales-study-finds-120517/
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If not for the fear of appearing to support myxa's pretty annoying position, I would have to mention that of course it's not.
For one, copyright protections are not absolute. No consent is required to copy, for instance:
* Food recipes
* Engineering schematics
* Instructions
As well as anything in general that is valuable for its utilitarian rather than artistic merit.
Works combining utility and art may still be subject to copyright, e.g. a recipe that is more than just a list of ingredients and procedures, but that protection falls if those creative additions are removed.
Copyright protection is not considered to be an extension of property rights, but is rather temporarily granted to authors by the Congress in the interests of promoting art and science. That's in US, but similar in other countries, the legal source of copyright is promotion of public interest rather than a person's natural rights.
I like your posts. They are constructive. It saddens me that you never really commented on my position. I'd love to hear why you think it is annoying.
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You said that all word of mouth is good (even if it's negative).
No I didn't
. WOM is undesired by publishers if they release bad product. My hypothesis is that's why they hate on pirates so much. Now the opposite is true and WOM is desired by developers who release good games. That's why I proposed DRM measures cause I believe that piracy delivers massive WOM.
HWP, I think you're missing one big aspect to this graph - fans. It's huge. So huge that we only see sequels and remakes now. I also don't agree that piracy is diminishing sales all the time.
I'm pretty sure I destroyed every part of your original postHaha. How sure are you?
With that out of the way lets discuss why you believe making a copy of intellectual property without pay or consent is not stealing. If i wander into gamestop, slice off the bar code of a game and leave with it
So you just gave another example of stealing. How does this represent copying exactly?
Seriously you're gonna have to walk me through this because i can't seem to understand the very obvious differences that apparently exist.
No. You are too deaf to listen.
Wha.. fucking what? The witcher 1 and 2 are higher budget, popular genre game. They sold very well. Because so many people own it, you have more reviews and because the games were very good you have high reviews. What the hell does "Pirate Marketing" have to do with anything? Christ.. What hell does "Pirate marketing" even mean?
Budget has nothing to do with it. Do you care what budget the game had if it's a good game? Will you stop playing a good game if you found out that it had very low budget?
Witcher 1 did not have huge budget. It was pirated too. I actually found out about it when it hit the torrent sites. I played it too. I liked it. I bought the second one.
Edit: Forgot this: Yes I made up the term "Pirate marketing" just because I'm so smart
. It means Word of Mouth marketing to people who download games without paying for them. -
But first you'll just "borrow" a copy of the game to see if it's worthy, right? Even though you could easily find out from these forums or the reviews that come out. Or do you think Chris has enough cash to "buy" a bunch of reviewers?
I don't trust reviews. They are subjective.
Good try with "borrow". Still the core is "Taking" and not copying. Good try though.
That has little to do with software piracy as no one runs 20 year software. But, it could have an effect on mass media piracy.Just shows your age. I replayed Dune 2 and Duke Nukem 3D not so long ago.
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This. A million times THIS.
Word of mouth matters, and in both directions. I often ask my friends about new games, and if they give me a big rant about getting ripped off or the game just sucking balls, then I'll write it off.
Same thing when I look at forums related to the game and they're full of people complaining about the same issues.
Same thing when the game's company or designers pull some idiotic stunt that shows total contempt for their customers.
These days, there are enough interesting games coming out (more than I'll ever be able to play) that I don't have to give my money to jackasses.
Thank you for supporting my point
Willingly or not.. Pirates also post on forums and complain (and pirates have the best expertise since they played more games than you) Here's a +1 to WOM Pirates. You agree that this can happen the other way and you can read good things about some game that came out recently? -
mxya, I know a lost cause when I see one. That's why I have tried not to respond after your second post to me. But when I see you floating phrases around like "there is no bad or good WOM", I have to step in for the sake of accuracy.
How word of mouth can work against companies.
The good and bad sides of word-of-mouth
There used to be a phrase in marketing I remember, that 1 dissatisfied customer would tell 10 others. That was before the advant of mass personal instant communication (e.g. the internet, but not just that).
Please stop trolling. I know you won't. You're getting too many lulz out of this. But, all the same, please stop.
WOM is a medium that transfers news (bad or good or otherwise). WOM by itself cannot be bad or good. I I don't really see how pirates can spread bad news about the good game
I can't possibly imagine any ideological reason to pirate an indie game like Xeno.It's not overpriced, it's not being sold under false pretenses, the devs aren't ignoring their customers, Goldhawk isn't too big to care, and it's not one of the MPAA companies.
This is Goldhawk's first game. They don't have a reputation. That's one reason.
So, Mxya, are you going to buy this game, Xenonauts, or are you just planning to steal a copy and play for free?I will definitely buy the game if I think it is worthy. I actually loled how you just ignored my last post and asked me if I'm planning to "steal".
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Most of the people that do illegal downloads of stolen software and media have to know where the stuff is available to download. So, yeah, you do have to share some knowledge. I don't know where to find illegal downloads at all. Sure, I could probably find out, but I have no desire.
Pirates do talk to honest people, they also share a lot of pirated software amongst themselves and tell others where/how to get it. You're WOM justification for stealing is what's laughable. Any person interested in gaming can find countless articles, ads, WOM from honest decent users, and reviews about new games online without having some illegal thief "advising" them.
It's pretty apparent that you are desperately try to find something redeeming about your pirating because you know it's wrong.
Search your feelings, Mxya, you can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your piracy.
There is no bad WOM or good WOM. The more WOM you get the better. People pay millions for TV adds that don't advertise anything other than a brand. Just to get their name "out there".
I don't feel bad nor do I feel the need to redeem or advocate about piracy. I do not take for or against side. I tried to be as objective as possible about piracy as a phenomena. I know the piracy has negative impact but I also know it has a positive. People (you call them Honest people) are always all crazy about negative. Piracy is hurting Big corporations intentions on selling you crap so they dirty mouth it and many do pick it up. Even those who say Piracy is bad can't say how bad it is or even prove that it's bad. They just "know it" or they try to call to your morals by calling you thief and claiming that you steal using faulty analogies like the famous car one.
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Not gonna bother quoting 3 except to bring up the fact that you mentioned stardock. They released demigod DRM free in 09 because they said that customers should not be punished for what criminals were doing to thier product. A very cool stance. They sold something like 20k units the first weekend. They had 120,000 separate users log in to play on their servers in the same time span. Piracy helped them out a ton!
I want to point this out. Now I never heard about this game. You say the game did not have DRM at all. So it did not use Pirate marketing. Now witcher 2 did have DRM and did exactly what I posted in step 1 (which you called stupid,duh). Not looking at the rating but at the review numbers on gamespot: Demigod - 1000+ vs Witcher 2 5000+.
In case you didn't know, Witcher was successful selling more than 1 million copies on PC. Who's the stupid now?
Thoughts of the pirate on Piracy thread
in Off-Topic
Posted
lol