corpse
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Posts posted by corpse
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Let's quote you again:
Your claim was that at the beginning of the game, the shotgun is "pretty guaranteed" to kill an alien in one hit. But, as I've shown, this isn't true. Most early game aliens have between 60-75HP, while the shotgun does on average 75 damage if all pellets hit. That's not very certain at all. Similarly, most late game aliens have 200-250ish HP and the MAG carbine does 255 damage on average. That's almost exactly the same chance of getting a one-hit-kill.
As such, you're assertion that shotguns get less powerful as a result of alien levelling is wrong. The probability they will get a one-hit-kill against enemies of an equivalent tier is more or less exactly the same at the beginning of the game as it is at the end.
I therefore return to my original point: the heavy weapons become better because they gain several advantages with Predator armour that they don't have beforehand. Yes, a MAGSTORM is a much more reliable killer when given to a Predator armoured soldier than a Sentinel armoured soldier with a MAG Carbine. I was never disputing that. But that's not because the MAG Carbine got worse relative to the enemies you're facing, it's because the MAGSTORM is stronger as a result of the mobility and accuracy afforded it by wearing Predator armour.
may i present a shocking alternative: MAGSTORM and PREDATOR are not the problem, the problem is that the otehr weapons cannot do it, thus the problem can be prevented by buffing MAG carbine and MAG rifle into such level that guaranteed kill with one action (point blank salvo) is as easy to accomplish?
smashing.
now, as stated, i will cease this. having completed the game and seeing the developer opinions is enough and make a lot of things that troubled my mind clear enough. although i am still weirded out that vehicles have no coaxial guns and that HYPERION model has rocket pods on it yet it has no use for them such as possible smoke launchers.
P.S addendum:
"People don't have a choice about what weapons to use, instead they just have to use whatever weapon is overpowered in that particular tier." they already do, chris, they already do.
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Yeah, the Predator gives a completely new ability and, to an extent, it unbalances the ground combat (which is sort of the point of it). You're complaining that it removes choice - you have to use the Predator / MAGSTORM, right? It's boring that there's no choice but use it.
What you're proposing would create exactly the same thing for every tier of weapon. Oh, you've got to use the rifle (or whatever) in the laser tier because whatever changes have been made to that tier make it the most powerful. Boring, because there's no choice.
Does that not strike you as ironic?
actually what does strike as ironic is how much a developer can be blinded to reading what has been said.
If a burst from a mag-rifle at point blank would ALSO be able to kill an alien guaranteedly, would that make the MAGSTORM useless? no. it would mean you have 2 options. if the shotgun had the same guaranteed ability at point blank, would it remove the magstorm? no. again, it would mean that we had 3 options to use, rather than 1.
but again, since you are adamant on seeing no other possibilities but the two options of copypasting starting equipment versus INSTANT SUPERGUNS it is really a conversation that has no value on itself. Because yes, if you made weapons differ from starting setups, you would have to test the balance not once but multiple times, and that all costs dev hours. shame, isnt it.
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I'm addressing the inital point that you raised, namely:
You rapsodise on variety between weapon tiers. I have now shown two solid examples that variety is illusion when using calculable statistics, first with the Heavy Plasma, then with JA2. At no point is this a "totally different scenario", as these are the points you raised to begin with. If you don't want to discuss it, fine. But please don't try to cover up your own talking points.
and again, given that we have weapon categories we have yet to see me request multiple of the same weapon category on the same weapon tier (the JA problem) becuase that would be stupid, period. Furthermore, what you again assume i fail to grasp are the weapon categories: please point out where i request a rifle to outperform a sniper rifle on a sniper rifles territory on any tier whatsoever- because you willl not find such claim.
having rifle gain +10 range on the cahnge from 5,56 to LASERS does not mean you cannot have the LASER SNIPER rifle given same (or better) buff to keep the same tier sniper stilll more suitable to sniping.
But i understand the reasons it has been done- it is a very easy solution to keep every gun a copypaste since it means you only have to make a new model. it however, does not mean it is the best solution and hence my sadness about it.
P.S on the chris's coment on xenonauts squads wielding other than single type of gun, please do remember the other important statistic: rather than carried into missions, which guns are actually used to kill aliens and in what ratio, because that is where the true "balance" resides.
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That's not true. A MAG carbine does 85 damage/pellet (average) for a total of 255 (assuming all hit). Alien HP cap at 270 (for Wraith Elites), 240 (for Sebellian Elites) and 200 or less for everything else.
In comparison, a basic shotgun does 25 damage/pellet (average) for a total of 75 (assuming all hit). Alien HP vary from 45 (Caesan non-com) to 75 for a Sebillian Guard (and more if you encounter Soldiers before upgrading to Laser weapons).
I'm too lazy to write out all the maths, but on the basis of this the chance of killing early game aliens with a shotgun is pretty much identical to killing late game aliens with a MAG carbine. (And that's ignoring the fact that you don't always fight the top-tier aliens in late game either).
As for your argument about the early game LMG: it's far from useless and I get a lot of mileage out of it in terms of suppression.
except for one concept: guaranteed.kill. deduce from your own post does this mean that your point-blank shot kills the alien ten out of ten times? no, it does not. one pellet misses? RIP xenonaut. all pellets hit and make "average" damage on that elite you mentioned? RIP xenonaut. THIS is why the predator-magstorm combination gets so much use. point blank salvo has high enough overflow that the salvo is a guaranteed kill (10xwhatever damage it does means you got about 3/4th of damage you can miss and still guarantee a kill)
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The balance of the game was significantly improved by making the upgraded guns straight damage increases. The optimum strategy in the original X-Com is to rush Heavy Plasmas because they're totally overpowered and you never need any other advanced gun - it's nothing to do with the fact they're the only weapon you get late in the game.
We added the weapon variation within the tier, rather than between the tiers. Most people don't equip their entire squads in Xenonauts with exactly the same weapon, whereas most people equip their entire squads with Heavy Plasmas in X-Com.
You can find a mod to change it if you'd rather have things the old way, but please don't tell me that it would improve game balance.
And this is soooooooo wrong interpretation of anything that has been tried to say so far. i yet have to see a single post that requests a single-purpose all-powerful weapon in here given that the request be that weapons change in some other way than direct damage upgrade. lets elaborate: increase magazine size on higher-tier heavy weapons or decrease damage but make them shoot 20 shots per salvo. increase range on higher-tier sniper rifles. give some higher-tier shotgun a burst fire and increase the ridiculous effective range of the rifle and so on and so on.
the "balance" isnt a two-forked choice between static guns which dont change at all and "heavy plasma", and i find it weird how that is so hard to grasp. and the idea that the current iteration is "balanced" because the weapons remain the same is just as biased.
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I'm not sure that's a comparable situation, though, since Predator armour *forces* you to use heavy weapons and significantly buffs them. Arguably, the problem is Predator armour rather than weapon balance.
(Heavy weapons are well balanced compared with other weapons under normal situations. Predator armour removes more or less all their restrictions by making them mobile and removing recoil/low STR penalties for firing. If there's a problem, then, it's not that other weapons lack variety, it's that they were never balanced against the super-powered predator-with-heavy-weapon.)
no, the problem lies in the inherent enemy leveling. after very first tier where a shotgun-to-the face is still pretty guaranteed 1HKO is behind you there are literally zero weapons that you can reliably use to kill an enemy in one action with one unit. at MAG tier even a burst from point blank with a rifle has a decent chance of not killing an enemy unit- meaning it will on worst case retaliate immediately or on its own turn. heavy weapon with the 10rd salvo is pretty much the only weapon aside a singularity cannon where a line of fire within 10 tiles equals guaranteed neutralization of an enemy unit. this in turn means that you either take the "easy route" by fielding large numbers of heavy weapons or the long route of coming up with 3-or 4-step plans with multiple units to take out a single enemy.
and saying that heavy weapons are "balanced" outside predator armor is plain wrong: the ballistic MG at the early-game is ridiculously useless and of every player i so far have asked i have not seen a single player who has found any use for it.
Caine, having 10 assault rifles of which 1 is better than the rest is a totally different scenario than having 4 tiers of weapons where the tiers improve or modify stats beyond static damage increase- because lets face it, in xenonauts the next tier of guns could just be bypassed with "+20 damage" research and a new LED light at the gun..
P.S it tells much that you say the "problem" is that the predator actually makes heavy weapons efficient.
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@corpse, but none of that mattered, as the Heavy plasma had the right combination of power, accuracy and ammo to make every other weapon worthless. That's what happens when you alter weapons based upon mathematically calculable values, such as weapon stats. Some weapons will rise to the top as superior DPS and they won't necesarily be the ones the developer wants.
i digress- heavily. the reason heavy plasma was the ultimate tool wasnt due to it being OP (tho it was) but due to the fact it was the only choice- given that after 3rd month or so it was the only weapon aliens deployed, it was the only one you could have ample ammo for. Furthermore, if the weapons had differing stats (say, give us a combat shotguns, give more ammo to some heavy gun magazines) it wouldnt mean theyd automatically become jack-of-all-stats, far from it. IN FACT, given the current setup where all ranges and ammo and accuracy remained written in stone, shotguns became worthless by the last mission: 85% of all the aliens i killed on the last 4 months of the game were with MAGSTORM/predator combination.
So no, by making new guns mere reskins and 20% damage increases, goldhawk (chris) did *not* gain any sort of magical "balance" in the game any more than making the new guns actually better and different than the previous ones.
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there are 3 reasons this is unnecessary and just overcomplication:
a) the charlie flightrange is enough to anywhere on the planet (not sure, but never got into a UFO that i couldnt reach)
b) one charlie can do seemingly unlimited sorties in one flight so you can shoot down 6 UFOs and fetch them all before returning to base AND it has equipment teleportation device so any equipment that is manufactured mid-flight can stilll be faxed onboard
c) as stated on the other posts, manufacturing armors and weapons for multiple squads (no alien gear for you in this game so you manufacture those plasmas by hand) eats money and time- so to keep both squads "on the edge" you not only need multiple squads but also a earmarked workshop complex for both teams (personally i have 2 workshops building infantry gear for 1 squad and 2 workshops producing fighters at late-game and this is merely at veteran)
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I think some people here need to work on their reading comprehension.
The dev clearly states that AI does NOT get any information about Xenonauts position that it doesn't get legitimately (from sight and seeing the shots).
I think most people here tend to disagree because of personal experience to the contrary. having seen a caesan throw a grenade over a fence at three guys and hitting a bullseye tends to make you cough- given that it was the first turn and therefore the specific caesan had zero chance of seeing any of the 3 dudes (due to the aforementioned tank-proof fence.)
ofc, before the inquisition asks, no i did not save that particular game and the auto-save is long gone i suppose.
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Even if we worked on the game for another five years, we wouldn't be changing the weapon tiers or putting the plane or mechs we removed back in the game.
yes, that came rather clear and is really rather sad- in original XCOM games every weapon was different- if you look at ufopaedia you notice that pistol, laser pistol and plasma pistol are more than just reskin and +20% damage as makes sense- every rifle has different accuracy, tu cost and cip size modifiers as well. because one could think that upgrading from 5,56 to railguns firing at 5000m/s would increase the effective range.. or that 5 months into the conflict someone would make the astonishing idea that if shotgun single-fire isnt effective enough, why not add a little burst option to the next iteration of the gun.
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Approach from the side?
thats the way to do it, yes. was just stating to sentinel that "but we have 70% TUs remaining!" isnt an answer to the "aliens open door and shoot you in the face"-dilemma. in fact, "approachign carefully" isnt any more sensible option, the most useful way is to understand what range your soldiers can seize the doors from. so systematically creeping forwards with the mantra "reaction fire reaction fire" will end up in nothing else but piles of dead xenonauts.
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What annoys me is the fact that its 1979, the cold war is still strong and there should be a ZILLION fighters all around the world, yet YOU have to use 2 normal fighters to hunt single UFOs.
Im like "wat ?"
Or Ufo lands, you find 5 civs, 2 neutral soldiers.
wat ?
Where are tanks, special ops ? The world is building on military investitions and yet you use 10 Privates to clear UFOs...
ESPECIALLY when you land into a base full of t-80s and bradleys, yet all the soldiers you see are 2 guys with m16s.
having more organized local forces woulda been nice addition- more aliens, and more locals to counter them.
anyone remember XCOM apocalypse? in that game UFOs actually sometimes got shot down by megapol hovercopcars and if they were dumb enough to hit any crime syndicate buildings with their smaller UFOs, the skies would suddenly be full of osiron/psyke/diablo hovercars and bikes and even valkyrie interceptors shoting the poor bastards out of the skies.
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Is it a sensible/practical weapon? No.
Does it make me cackle with glee every time I fire it and catch 5 enemies in the radius and make them explode? Yes.
actually, using the "stay where your drop pod lands and level the entire map with 1 flying guy calling targets from above" with even 1 of these is surprisingly fun AND sensible it seems. ofc its slow as what and civilan hearts and minds are literally all over the place but its fun- especially when augmenting the "backpack fulll of ammo and magstorm in hand"-firing line.
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I must be the only guy who approches ufo's carefully and slowly. ensuring my soldiers have roughly 70%-80% of their TU's when approaching the doors.
Yes I developed this tactic to thwart the "Oh look, the humans are right outside our door and exhausted. Let's blast them!" quirk they gained in recent updates. Now generally there's just one alien who opens the door and gets murdered by my reaction fire.
Except 2 things: a) opening doors does not invoke reaction fire b) as stated, aliens can open doors without being behind one. so in case the alien just opens a door and shoots, your reaction fire will come after that shot. now how many lucky heavy plasma shots can one xenonaut operative take to the face?
lets get the absolute best part ive so far encountered. recall the big carrier front doors? well, i had my guys ready to take reaction fire, well away from the doors themselves. zap, an alien teleports 1 tile away from the door (opening the door in the process) and the rest of the bogeys inside rain hellfire on me. yes, i got reaction fire after their shots, but that does not really make the dead come back alive does it?
gets better. what is the best weapon for reaction fire? pistols and shotguns. what is the effective range that xenonaut operative can hit a side of a bran from? about 4 tiles. And of course, late-game that one reaction shot will not kill and alien, but one reaction shot from the alien will usually kill you.
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Does anyone know is there any reason to stay and wait, is there any hidden triggers that makes the aliens try to make a charge out of the UFO at turn 100 or something like in the original UFO?
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the weight of the singularity cannon is ridiculous tbh- you can load a predator armored soldier with magstorm and backpack full of ammo AND breaching charges so that he has literally 0 inventory space remaining and he still doesnt lose a single TU, yet the empty singularity cannon removes half the TU. Gameplay-wise this means its useless aside from the very last mission and a fun occurrence: even though you might be able to fire the weapon, you can have so much TU loss if carrying too much ammo YOU DONT HAVE TU TO RELOAD IT at the start of next turn.
as it is, if you need a obstacle remover, use any vehicle, even the hunter can have railgun attached to it- no way you can get singularity cannon and 12 rounds into a normal mission easier than just using the vehicle.
EDIT:
it appears reloading the 50-kilo hunk takes 40 TU, so if the unit you give it has 100 TU before weapon, he can only carry 7 extra ammo to have enough TU to reload with full turn. ofc, if you really want to you can drop the entire backpack, wait one turn, reload, then pick up the ammo gain, so you theoretically *can* out-perform the hyperion ammo capacity of 12 with 2 operatives... if you use 3 turns to reload per shot. that way you can carry a maximum of 28 shots into combat with 2 men (one in launcher, 10 in backpack, 3 on belt) and fire them all in just under 50 or so turns.
EDIT2:
actually, if staying immobile and dumping the excess ammo under the operator it *IS* possible to have the weapon firing every second turn outperforming vehicles on terrain leveling quite well. given that majority of the weight comes from the weapon, rest of the predator soldiers can carry extra ammo, too.
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Those ideas would certainly make the game more complex, but whether most of them would actually add to the gameplay experience is debatable.
In any case, the argument is largely academic - development has finished on Xenonauts now.
this is sad, considering the amount of problems as the "finished" version has- wouldve been nice to have the flamethrower ingame as well as the different tier weapons being something else than model change and damage+20% as well as the missing plane and the mech. Oh, and the bug where shooting buildings enough with heavy plasma first deconstructs them into firewood blocks (vaporising everything inside) and then causing a CTD...
PS. oh, and forgot the lineofsight problems that let you see aliens inside the UFO between different floors.
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Unless you want just to complain/chat and nothing more, cite is useless. Provide a save that reproduces it.
Let's try it, just for the fun of it: It is not. See why I wrote the above?
AI can open doors even though they are not next to it- having one empty tile between the door and the alien doesnt prevent them from opening it. xenonaut operatives cannot. Given the alpha and omega of the game AI seems to be camp-in-cover-inside-the-indestructible-UFO this is rather nasty exploit.
just tell me one thing please
in Xenonauts General Discussion
Posted
back in the original XCOMs you could sell stuff you manufacture with a nice profit- not sure if they covered the engineer upkeep but at least you could keep your engineers busy all the time to earn their wages if you werent building something for yourself. but yea, the economy has certainly taken some (bad) ideas from the firaxis games.