Jump to content

Different types of shotgun ammo


Recommended Posts

LOL i have a lot of trouble writing in english. Really sorry about that. Even when I "proof read" i let so many error trough, I keep correcting my post tough :(

Well basicly Gorlon you are right about that one. I translated behold in the wrong way, my bad here.

Beeholder! I am so mixed up in translation, it's sad.

Here is something I picket up already translated : It means for instance, that if you fight evil, you should take care that you do not become evil yourself. This is actually the explanation for the line before this quote in Nietzsche's essay. The abyss looks back at you means that when you begin to know somthing that is fundamentally different from yourself, you take a piece of it with you and it changes you and vice versa. Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_is_mean_when_you_look_into_the_abyss_the_abyss_looks_back_at_you#ixzz1ktw6mbll

About the tech tree decided by Chris. Ok, he made the planning and all. He's in charge of the project, it's his desing choice and hell, he's the one working there and coding, getting our rants all day about this and that.

I am sorry if I did offend anyone on any feeling I expressed. The team is doing a great job.

However, when I saw the sugestion and feeback forum, well i tough "Pourquoi pas?".

As such, i'm not going to give you flowers and tell you How great your are and all. If that's the intent, get a dog or something, don't ask for people to get their impression here.

I understand that weapon flexibility won't be implemented in the game. I find this sad, but there are contraints and design choices made. (usual corporate stuff)

You might want to narrow the Suggestion forum to some limitted subject. Might help to know what you want to hear about.

I did like the quick feedback about how the game design is being implemented.

Edited by plucx
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No no beeholder was a joke, as it is someone who holds bees. What I meant was that the phrase "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" always meant that two people can look at the same thing, and they may have different opinions of it.

For instance we can both look at the same piece of art, and one of us may really like it, and the other one not really care for it at all. And as such, the beauty of the art work is dependent on the person who is looking at it.

i just didn't know what that had to do with keeping human tier weapons for the entire game vs researching alien ones....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

plucx your suggestions are apriciated and none of the community here really ahs a say in if a suggestion is bad or not. Chris might like an idea the community doesnt and still take inspiration from it to make something awesome so don't stop the ideas flowing!

If you think we are shooting your suggestion down it's more that we think it will be hard to implement or ask you to elaborate on it. Possibly it could be because we don't want you to get your hopes up about something we see as impossible to implement. It's very important you dont take it personally if you feel people are against you. People that do find your ideas interesting might just not be speaking up. People are allways louder when speaking against something then when agreeing with someone else.

I think there's a proverb about silence beeing in agreement or something. maybe its just a swedish saying though.

I like the idea of multiple ammos for the shotgun but I just dont think the game allowes for a weapon to behave differently based on the ammo stuck into it. (rather then change the effect from explosion to gas, incineary or smoke when a rocket hits for the rocketlauncher your suggestion would change the way thegun shoots based on the ammo. If I have understood it correctly)

Edited by Gorlom
My spelling is aweful.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the idea of multiple ammos for the shotgun but I just dont think the game allowes for a weapon to behave differently based on the ammo stuck into it. (rather then change the effect from explosion to gas, incineary or smoke when a rocket hits for the rocketlauncher your suggestion would change the way thegun shoots based on the ammo. If I have understood it correctly)

Yes, I think playability and game enjoyment could be gained trough ammunition variety. This is an issue a lot of player will talk(whine) about.

No hard feelings btw. (I'll try harder to put a lot of smiley all over the place :) )

Loved the Bee jokes =:.)

My point is that if there is a lot of people asking for something, maybe there is a reason why. Turning down a request type might get the wrong impression about mainstream expectation. Wich might get user very disapointed or frustrated. It's not a fan project anymore, you have to pay to play (it's an Alpha, i know).

So consumer expectation are important now. Same goes with the attitude of the user. he's not going to content with bug, lousy excuses or even good excuses. I think i'm still in the "not paid for the product" kind of attitude. But i'm not very happy with many design choice made by Chris. Still he have a vision and I respect that. He also have to get the job done, that just by itself is quite a thing. But still, that won't stop me from yapping and representing my interest.

I beleive he really want that game to impress a lot of people. It's his maiden flight as a developper and it's important that he doe's not miss the mark.

He got the right product at the right time. He just got to push it on the selves with a working engine to sell it.

However, will it be a great game?

I don't know for myself, I can't even throw a grenade without blowing half my squad. I can't pick anything up! The weapons load out are limitted at best ... I get frustrated with every UFO interceptions. I don't know how many people feel like I feel but as an alpha it's still time to change stuff. And it won't change if I stay quiet. In a way I care about this project.

I like the weapon looks. The way they fire is well streamlined. But there is a ton of work to get it going on the market (alpha right).

I also have the feeling that the kind of story arch taht Chris want is one that get you to need Hi-Tech alien research done in order to win the war. Having too much flexibility in early game mecanics would then unbalance the game and the player could miss the climax or again, not be ready for the planned turning point.

As such, this can lead to great effect but is also a poor role playing. Like reading a novel, instead of making your own story.

I'd like to play more of the game but I can't. Getting a wipe because i can't throw grenades get me berzerk, no timers on them either. A contact grenade is such a bad thing. Wy do you think no one use them. Thats why we got grenade lauchers.

Well, here I go ranting for pages and pages again!

Love you guys, kisses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

pardon my insolence but why is so difficult to implement a flechette effect and a broader buckshot effect......... this is looking more and more like cutting corners needlesly, you are charging $29 for a game firaxis will charge $39-45 or so.... shiny stuff counts big time..... production values have to be there... pixels or no pixels..... you can use flechettes in ufo AI and is freeware, and 3d and not even that good to be honest, and been around for 5 years......... what is going on? are you planning to be a one game company?........:mad:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but that's the thing, the engine is different. Now one way to do it would to shoot several shots at slightly divergent angles, but then the ammo counter might go all screwy. Or perhaps you can get a cone effect, but then you need to program the game so that if part of the cone hits something, it all doesn't stop moving.

I'm not sure of the exact reason that a wide spread hasn't been implemented, but I think it might have to do with the engine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is so important about having a shot spread - from a design standpoint, not a "this is how it works in reality" standpoint? I'm a big fan of shotguns and when I first played with them I had the same thought for a brief moment - "wouldn't it be neat if there was a little spread on this shot?"

Then I thought about it and, no, it wouldn't actually be that neat at all. The only time it would ever be useful is in those rare circumstances where two aliens are standing right next to each other, which will only reliably happen with crowded as hell small UFOs.

Doing things because you can and because it sounds neat and because it would make sense in real life - these are never good reasons to do things in game design, you need more concrete stuff. If you try to make a game like that your design is going to become hopelessly bloated and your time and effort will be spent upon endless feature drift instead of the actual game. Unless you're going to make a concise post that really focuses on explaining why flechette/a game mechanic of shot spread is important and needed, it's hard to read your posts especially now that you're bordering on insulting Goldhawk in them.

I like the idea of prolonging the lifespan of the ballistics tier, particularly the shotgun as I'm a fan of the weapon in all genres. I think if you could make a reasonable suggestion for ballistics to remain useful for the whole game in some niche fashion I'd be very supportive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a bit wounded Gauddlike.

I am unsure why but apologies anyway.

My previous post just said you were overthinking the shotgun.

It just means you are focusing on a single weapon from a single tech tier and putting a lot of emphasis on it.

If you start adding new ammunition that overlaps into the flamethrower role or the launcher role then those weapons need to be reworked as well or be left with little use in the game.

At the moment it is a strong short to mid range weapon which works well.

I am not yet convinced that changing it for some kind of spread shot would be useful.

What situations do you see that being better than a direct shot at the a target?

It does sound like what you are after is a return of the auto and heavy cannon from x-com.

I used both of those extensively but that was because in THAT game there were no alternatives.

Adding different damage types like acid or fire would involve making enemies who were weaker against those than any of the other weapons available or they would be useless.

Shotguns with dragonbreath rounds would have to be weaker than the flamethrower.

Shotguns with explosive ammo would have to be weaker than grenades or launchers to make those weapons better in their own role etc.

I can see why you might suggest that the versatility was their strong point then but that would be at the cost of the weapon role system that Chris is using in the game.

*edit* And no I am not a shotgun fan, my choice would be to remove it and replace it with an SMG type weapon.

Short to medium range with reduced accuracy but fires in bursts only.

Edited by Gauddlike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I won't be satisfied until Xenonaughts models every possible thing that the soldiers could do with the available technology. I want soldiers dual-wielding heavy machineguns while riding bicycles so that they can shoot the aliens twice as much while also running them over. Also, I want spikes on the bike wheels so the aliens get impaled while also getting shot and run over, except that the spikes are coated with a poison that is also an acid that is also on fire, so as the aliens are getting shot and run over and impaled, they are also getting poisoned and dissolved and set on fire, and as the soldier passes by he says mean things that hurts the alien's feelings and makes him cry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adding different damage types like acid or fire would involve making enemies who were weaker against those than any of the other weapons available or they would be useless.

Shotguns with dragonbreath rounds would have to be weaker than the flamethrower.

Shotguns with explosive ammo would have to be weaker than grenades or launchers to make those weapons better in their own role etc.

I can see why you might suggest that the versatility was their strong point then but that would be at the cost of the weapon role system that Chris is using in the game.

*edit* And no I am not a shotgun fan, my choice would be to remove it and replace it with an SMG type weapon.

Short to medium range with reduced accuracy but fires in bursts only.

I am in agreement. If you gave the shotgun a whole bunch of different types of ammo etc. but made each of them worse than the gun which specialises in that type of damage, then you'd just end up taking the better gun, and forget about the shotgun. And if you made the shotguns ammo the same or better, then you'd only take the shotgun because of it's versatility.

So Chris has limited the shotgun into a specific role, just like all of the other guns, so that you have to choose carefully what to take on missions, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed. I see the shotgun's speciality as obvious - exceptionally high damage and accuracy but you have to be close. This makes it an exciting weapon that has a high potential and also carries substantial risk. Shotguns vs Chryssalids is what always comes to my mind.

I would really like to see that weapon style continued in further trees or at the very least the Shotgun remaining useful in that niche for most of the game, but it seems we have SMGs instead. Some kind of energy/plasma equivalent of the shotgun's game style would be excellent, and I hope the SMGs fulfill that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am in agreement. If you gave the shotgun a whole bunch of different types of ammo etc. but made each of them worse than the gun which specialises in that type of damage, then you'd just end up taking the better gun, and forget about the shotgun. And if you made the shotguns ammo the same or better, then you'd only take the shotgun because of it's versatility.

So Chris has limited the shotgun into a specific role, just like all of the other guns, so that you have to choose carefully what to take on missions, etc.

Imo that can be balanced by the magazine sizes. If we assume that the shotgun and grenades/flamethrower etc are qually good then choosing which isnt jsut about the versitality its about the ammo as well. If the shotgun can do everything but the ammo consumption is much more rapid you wont load up on everything you will load up with the thing you want it as and if you've balanced it good it will still be more costeffective ammowise to bring the real weapon. (Still dont think its really possible with the system in place to change the behaviour of the gun depending on ammo though)

Furthermore @Gauddlike: I dont think you need to make any aliens specially vaunerable to acid if you give it specific properties. Fires stay in place. have acid stick to the alien and burn it as it runs around. Allow it to burn through walls, burn trough floors and dripdown onto any alien underneath. you can even cheat by makeing one alien resistant to fire but not acid if you want. Theres lots of things you hypothetically could do with acid without forcing it as a weakness. Although i dont see any reason to include it in xenonauts.

Edited by Gorlom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Basically you're free to mod in various types of ammo for various types of weapons (I think alternative ammos can be added, if not we can probably add some code for it) but it's not going to be in vanilla Xenonauts. Ammo management isn't particularly fun and the role of the shotgun is basically to kill things at short range, while the rifles kill things at longer range. The fun should come from the tactics rather than having precisely the right ammo in your gun at the right time.

If people want to make a JA1.13 mod then that's cool with me but the average player shouldn't have to become a walking encylopedia on weapons to stop the alien invasion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Chris: I see the strength of various ammos not being in the challenge of knowing which to use at the right time but more giving people options to play the way they like. Naturally, that said, I think you have a great philosophy in letting that kind of thing be modded in instead of making everyone abide by it, and I really do think that carrying through with your suggestion on making it easy to mod in extra ammo types is a good move to accommodate everyone at once.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really like your answer Chris.

Leaving us the possibility to mod this is greatly appreciated.

As for the autocannon, Gaz canon equivalent, well I consider the Shotgun and the Machinegun to fill these roles.

Acid shots and the like, yes having persistant damage is the key in a skirmish or attrition strategy.

As for the research tree, what if you decide to keep your humanity by using only human gear instead of relying only on alien gear. It would not increase the number of weapon, only the number of munition.

Could also mean you make a technological choice in term of research tree. The tech tree could then split and not be linked while leaving you the choice to get back on any other type of research.

Edited by plucx
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for the research tree, what if you decide to keep your humanity by using only human gear instead of relying only on alien gear. It would not increase the number of weapon, only the number of munition.

Don't think using an aliens gun is going to change you into an alien... It could, but probably not... =p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

people, you are not addressing the facts, there should be close combat flechettes ammo and animation and close combat buckshot and animation, this is 2012 game, not 1994 game, please spend the time developing the game, there is no excuses for this kind shortcuts..... i can get the same effects or better in a freeware game already........ the choice is clear, make the ultimate xcom game 90%+reviews in all pc magazine (=lots of sales) or cut corners and become an ufo extraterrestials failed game ( average review 60% aprox)=............failed sales....... your choice....., however if this ends up half cooked dont expect any more preorders from me...for any next games. this is the first time i risked my money on a preorder.... i usually buy games after 1-2 years ....game of the year edition and cheap AAA+ games, i made the pre -purchase becouse the company seemed serious about a professional xcom game...... cut features at your own risk......i am still fuming about lack of women soldiers......... and yes i know....... something about rendering lots of pixels-animation blah blah blah.......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cyllan, adding lots of weapons does not make a good game. Putting in the right number of weapons makes a good game. There's a reason why you don't see cars driving around with 19 wheels on them. There's no point.

If you want to mod in a million different weapons that do almost exactly the same thing and are useless beyond the first 20% of the game, be my guest. It's not difficult. But I'm not going to do it. I'm going to do as you suggest - spend my time developing the game.

I appreciate this is the first time you've pre-ordered a game and I'm grateful you've done it with us (especially as a premium pre-orderer), but there wasn't much of a selection of basic weapons in X-Com either so the fact you've only got a mere seven starting weapons to choose from doesn't really count as cutting a feature. There's a lot more guns in our game than there was in X-Com.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

people, you are not addressing the facts, there should be close combat flechettes ammo and animation and close combat buckshot and animation

I will address that for you if you want.

That is purely your opinion and you are fully entitled to it.

There is no reason, however, that those things SHOULD be in the game merely because they COULD be in the game.

This is not "Xenonauts: Shotgun Simulator".

Having a selection of ammunition types for the various weapons may be a nice feature to have but not an essential feature by any means.

My suggestion is if you feel that strongly about it you should make a "Cyllan Shotgun Mod".

If it turns out to be as good a feature as you suggest it might be then I am sure Chris would look at incorporating it.

If not then at least you have the mod for yourself and others to play around with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...