v9.0 Shotguns not doing correct (enough) damage

[Acidblood]

I've had it happen a few times now where an alien (the new green ones) survived at least 2 shotgun blasts at close range. Not entirely sure if this is a bug or I've just been really unlucky, but compared to V8.9 where a shotgun was a one hit kill about 80% of the time (especially at close range) it just doesn't seem right.

Note: This is specifically related to the shotgun as all the other weapons (with the possible exception of the pistol), seem to be as deadly (if not more so) than they where is V8.9.

[MrPyro]

The new aliens (Sebillians) are supposed to be a lot tougher than the Caesans, so it could just be that. I don't know if there is some specific interaction there, like Sebillians being more heavily armoured and shotguns having poor armour penetration that might make it even more noticable with the shotgun.

[mrsisk]

I've actually had a Sebillian withstand about 5 or 6 rounds of assault rifle hits from a rang of no more than 10 yards. My soldier was kneeling with like a 95% chance of hitting them, and he'd get 2 hits in per round, the stupid Sebillian just stood there and took it for all those rounds, returning fire only twice. Finally he died, but I can tell you, that either indicates the assault rifle is underpowered...or we all need to get plasma weapons ASAP!

[Gorlom]

You get human laser weapons before you get human plasma weapons. I dont think weapons do more damage based on proximity. Incase you were suggesting that when mentioning that your guy was 10 yards away (how many squares is that btw?)

[MrPyro]

You get human laser weapons before you get human plasma weapons. I dont think weapons do more damage based on proximity. Incase you were suggesting that when mentioning that your guy was 10 yards away (how many squares is that btw?)

The Xenonauts Wiki seems to disagree on that front:

http://xenowiki.goldhawkinteractive.com/index.php?title=Damage_System

One of the terms in the damage calculation is range to target

[Gorlom]

Ok that surprises me a lot. I would have expected it to only affect beyond the weapons max range but it does seem to do more damage the closer you are even in the weapons effective range.

[Ziggarius]

Wait... reading that formula...

That implies that a Precision Rifle will do significantly more damage at point-blank range than a Shotgun will do. no? Due to the damage bonus from "Weapon Range / Range to Target" part of the formula.

[Gauddlike]

Yeah the shotgun is less damaging up close than the sniper rifle.

Fairly significant difference as well, 320 damage against 1170 assuming a random modifier of 1.

The precision rifle is probably designed to be a heavy weapon though I would guess.

That would give it an accuracy penalty if the user had moved that turn.

More damage but not as easy to get into position for a point blank shot.

Maybe a minimum effective range would make sense for something like a sniper rifle?

[Ziggarius]

Might not be the thread for this. Personally, I question the current mechanic in it's entirety and adding a minimum effective range wouldn't really suffice...

The idea of a sniper rifle doing more damage for "open door, shoot once" than a shotgun.. is unsettling. Putting an effective minimum range into the damage calculation would make sense for how it would physically, and I think from a gameplay sense it would also make little sense for the damage to be lesser. I can understand an accuracy penalty at close ranges, but not damage. Overall, my gut reaction says it should have the damage from range modifier removed (or make it so it can only increase/decrease by 20% at the most... having the damage scale as high as it can is insane).

[NoIdidnt]

sniper rifle costs far more time units than a shotgun which makes it dangerous to use at short range. with a shotgun you will probably get off one shot without retaliation fire becouse of the low time unit cost then get off a second killing shot where with a sniper rile if you dont kill in one shot becouse of the high time unit cost you will probably get retaliation fire and also may not have the time units to get off a second shot.

[NoIdidnt]

although i do believe a shotgun should have a close range damage amplifier.

[Gorlom]

although i do believe a shotgun should have a close range damage amplifier.

Are you assuming buckshot ammo then? Or are you considering that the shotgun in Xenonauts are useing slugs?

I dont see why a slug should have a close range amplifier when a rifle bullet shouldnt. You will ahve to explain that to me.

PS. reading guaddlike's math a sniper rifle does almost 4 times as much damage as a shotgun. getting off 2 shots with the shotgun vs 1 shot (that still deals double total damage of the 2 shotgun shots) with the sniper rifle... I'd take the sniper rifl unless i need to kill 2 diffrent targets both on low health. DS.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Gorlom

[Gauddlike]

If you can open a door and fire the shotgun 3 times for 320 a shot while the sniper can fire once for 1170, and also has an accuracy penalty for moving, then that is more balanced than looking at pure damage numbers.

[NoIdidnt]

I am assuming shot. unless otherwise stated i assume "shot"guns use buckshot.

if the shotgun uses slugs then it should be treated more like just another rifle.

mabye a better word for the shotgun would be "riot gun"-short range-high damage-wide spread-low time unit cost becouse it would need no aiming, point and fire.

but almost of no use at range.

Edited February 22, 2012 by NoIdidnt

[Chris]

Hum. There should be a cap on how high the damage can be at close range. The number (well, the multiplier) shouldn't go above 1, I don't think. It can fall below 1 outside of operational range though.

[Gorlom]

Oh goodie! That was how I was expecting the range modifier to work.

[Ziggarius]

Same, that's how I expect the modifier to work as well. So, is it just the wiki that's off then?

[Gauddlike]

So should the damage number in weapons_gc be the actual damage rating of a weapon at its maximum range or at 1 tile range?

With the current formula it is the max range damage with a large bonus up close.

That is of course not taking into account the cap that is probably already in the code.

If you want to tone down the effect you can always use:

Damage Dealt = Weapon Damage * Random (0.9 - 1.1) - (Range to Target - Weapon Range)

Shotgun

1 tile = 47 damage

8 tiles = 40 damage

26 tiles = 22 damage

Sniper

1 tile = 70 damage

8 tiles = 63 damage

26 tiles = 45 damage

Instead of:

Damage Dealt = Weapon Damage * Random (0.9 - 1.1) * (Weapon Range / Range to Target)

Shotgun

1 tile = 320 damage

8 tiles = 40 damage

26 tiles = 12.3 damage

Sniper

1 tile = 1170 damage

8 tiles = 146.2 damage

26 tiles = 45 damage

The weapon_gc values can be changed to balance the weapons against armour etc.

That has range degradation but no massive damage bonus for being closer.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Gauddlike

[Gorlom]

I thought Chris just said that it deals the same damage as long as you are inside the weapons effective range. Wether it's 1 tile or at maxrange?

As I understand it the range multiplier is only in effect if it is less then 1 (<1)

[Gauddlike]

It is in effect the whole time, multiplying something by 1 doesn't affect the outcome though

What he said was that there should be a cap and that he thinks there should not be a bonus for short range.

I posted something that keeps a bonus to damage for being closer but tones it down from the current wiki formula.

It does have the drawback of making the weapons have a longer effective range though.

I mainly posted it to see how people felt about having a damage bonus for shooting something at close range.

[Gorlom]

I read "there should be" as "I thought there was", not "I need to come up with something". Guess it is a matter of interpertation.

Or have you proven that there is no cap currently ingame? I have assumed that you were just going by the math so far.

I prefere >1 = 1 for the range modifier.

[Gauddlike]

That was the way I read it as well.

I would assume there is already a cap in the game or most weapons would be one shot kills at point blank range.

I don't mind there being a small bonus to damage for being up close.

Doesn't matter either way to me, just figured as we were discussing it I might as well post what I had thought up.

I would also prefer a higher fall off over the default calculation though.

That is probably already taken into account by accuracy modifiers though.

Being close means more hits so more damage, being half a mile away means few hits so poor damage.

[StellarRat]

A shotgun at close range should be way more deadly than any normal rifle. Only a Barrett .50 Cal sniper rifle would be close. Every pellet of 00 buckshot has about hitting power of a 9mm round and there are nine of them in single 12 GA shell. Its like unloading a whole pistol clip instantly on the target.

[runequester]

Why would damage from a bullet vary significantly between 10 yards and 50 yards, for an assault rifle designed to fire out to 400 yards?

In most cases in Xenonauts, you are, at most, firing across a room or from one corner of a house to the next. Any drop off in velocity would be trivial at best.

[StellarRat]

That's an excellent point. Only a shotgun would heavily affected by the ranges in most maps.