SpikeOnUr6 Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I got Xenonauts in February and at that time there was some discussion going on in the forum regarding the possibility to implement the "shooting around corners". All the "experts" stated that no, it was simply to much work given that the release was set to end of May. I managed to play the game to the end for the first time with V22.5 and I just thought: "Wow, this game rocks! Correcting the few bugs and improving the AI a bit will make this game just great!!" And then... I was absolutely surprised that by V22.6 the developers actually implemented the shooting around corners (with just one month of development left). And I was definitely disappointed to see that it was just some tricks and not a complete feature. Clearly, there was not enough time to develop the system, and this has been confirmed in the last days. The ground combat is now absolutely unbalanced. The AI can calculate where they can shoot from before moving there, while the player must spend TUs and hope that from that spot there's a clear line of fire. The two discussions about the walls behaviour and the symmetry next to the mesas are just two examples of the many more situation where this happens. There's just no fun in playing a game which rules change from instance to instance. If I had the chance to vote, I would definitely choose the previous shooting system, which was: 1- Logic 2- Balanced 3- More similar to the OG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skitso Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 (edited) Yes, I lost my temper again this morning: I couldn't shoot a sebillian through a window, but was shot to death from the same spot. It just can't be left like this - It makes it considerably more frustrating and less fun. I really hope Chris & Co. can fix this or revert back to the original system. But yeah, the lack of symmetry really breaks the LoF system and it makes me sad. Edited May 24, 2014 by Skitso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabill Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 (edited) EDIT: Wat? Posted on completely the wrong thread! Oops. (I'd actually post on this, but I think I said everything I have to say over on the bug thread on the same topic. Ultimately, the system's good enough for me, but so far as I can tell there are some issues in places where shots are being allowed when they shouldn't, and that's not a good thing IMO.) Edited May 24, 2014 by kabill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I don't think it's "ruining the game". I played five hours last night and didn't even notice the change vs. the old one. If it was such a problem I'm sure I'd have been frustrated. In fact, I rather enjoyed myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skitso Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Yeah, I'm also enjoying myself a lot. On the other hand, you only need one unfair shot in an unfortunate situation to ruin a complete mission on even a game if played in iron man mode. If you lose an important high ranking unit to a fluke shot that shouldn't have happened, it really does break the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor_Tadeu Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Yeah, "ruining the game" is kinda pushing it far. But indeed it's annoying... The lack of any help to check the LOS and also the cover angle is confusing. Sometimes I dont know in witch tile I should put my troop behind a rock for it to be covered from a specific enemy or if from that point, especially corners, I will have a clean shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Jagged Alliance 2, v1.13 has hotkeys to overlay visibility / cover information on the map. In case of Xenonauts, pressing the hotkey would fill the map with colour-coded symbols for how hittable every square is from the pointer position. If you move the pointer over an enemy position (or suspected enemy position) and hold the hotkey, you get to see how well each square would be covered from that direction. A buggy / unpredictable cover system is workable if you can tell in advance how it's going to work. Then the game is "fair" because you made the decision to move there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor_Tadeu Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 (edited) Jagged Alliance 2, v1.13 has hotkeys to overlay visibility / cover information on the map.In case of Xenonauts, pressing the hotkey would fill the map with colour-coded symbols for how hittable every square is from the pointer position. If you move the pointer over an enemy position (or suspected enemy position) and hold the hotkey, you get to see how well each square would be covered from that direction. A buggy / unpredictable cover system is workable if you can tell in advance how it's going to work. Then the game is "fair" because you made the decision to move there. That thing in JA2 was awesome. It really helps you to feel the 2D world like a 3D universe. Edited May 25, 2014 by Victor_Tadeu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreasg Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I must agree that I find the line of fire system confusing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silenced Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 All I say about. It's a little bit broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Yeah, this issue is on our radar. I'm still undecided on what exactly we're going to do about it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Dread Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 That screenshot shows the LOF working as intended, but yeah I understand why it is confusing. You cannot hit that drone from the centre of your tile to the centre of its. if you rule a line you will see you hit the wall between the door and window. The best chance of hitting is from the corner of your tile to the center of the drones (you always aim to the center of the targeted tile) as you will shoot it through the window. Unfortunately that shot gets blocked by the tiny bit of wall in the corner of your square. I believe the system is working as intended, its just difficult to predict if you will be able to hit or not from a particular tile without placing a ruler on your screen on each of the corners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacticalDragon Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Yeah, this issue is on our radar. I'm still undecided on what exactly we're going to do about it though. Return the LOS system to the older system? The problem, as I say millon of times and you dont so more than ignore is the game elements was designed with older LOS system. The cover, the items and units volumen are not prepared to the new system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor_Tadeu Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 What is the difference between the old and the new systems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silenced Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 That screenshot shows the LOF working as intended, but yeah I understand why it is confusing. You cannot hit that drone from the centre of your tile to the centre of its. if you rule a line you will see you hit the wall between the door and window. Are you talking about my screenshot? If so, please look at it AGAIN, especially at the outmost left side, that's the soldier that wants to shoot and where the issue itself is. That's for sure not working as intended or designed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabill Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 What is the difference between the old and the new systems? The old LoF system drew a line from the centre of the shooter to the centre of the target. The new LoF system draws a line from any of the shooter's subtiles to the centre of the target, choosing the best path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeOnUr6 Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 The old LoF system drew a line from the centre of the shooter to the centre of the target.The new LoF system draws a line from any of the shooter's subtiles to the centre of the target, choosing the best path. Here's a bit of confusion... that's not what I'm criticizing. What I find unbalanced is how the 100% blocking props are sometimes actually blocking the shots, sometimes not... which is not always related to what you wrote (see example of building walls). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Yes, but in the screenshot posted the problem is that the game is not showing the "best" fire path that gets the shot closest to the alien. If it did (which is our first planned fix) then you wouldn't be complaining about the LOS system there. I think either the door or the filing cabinet is blocking the "best" shot. That doesn't mean the LOS system is inherently broken, even though lots of people think it is. It may well just be a simple display error. We'll update that and see if more updates are required once that is in. @TacticalDragon, online communities are very good at spotting when there are problems in games but they are generally also extremely bad at identifying the causes or proposing fixes to them. The job of the game developer is to work out why the community think there is a problem and fix the actual issue, which often lies a little deeper. I haven't listened to your solution for this issue because I know a lot more about this particular problem than you do, and I'm not going to just remove an entire system until I've tried all the obvious ways to make it work first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Dread Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Are you talking about my screenshot?.... That's for sure not working as intended or designed. Yes, I realise it is the left most soldier firing, as Chris says... That doesn't mean the LOS system is inherently broken, even though lots of people think it is. It may well just be a simple display error. We'll update that and see if more updates are required once that is in. So hopefully the new update will make it more obvious why the shot is missing and remove any ambiguity. [fingers crossed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaror Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Yes, but in the screenshot posted the problem is that the game is not showing the "best" fire path that gets the shot closest to the alien. If it did (which is our first planned fix) then you wouldn't be complaining about the LOS system there. I think either the door or the filing cabinet is blocking the "best" shot. But that's not the only problem it has. Sure it can be frustrating if you don't know why you can't shoot at an alien, but it is even more frustrating moving to a position and then realizing that you can't make the shot you wanted to make. In the old system you were able to guess the firing arcs somewhat correctly about 99% of the time. That was important because then you know were to move your soldiers in order to shoot that alien. Now it's a lot more confusing and overall less clear. Moving a soldier to a position were he can't shoot, even though it seems like he should be able to, happens a lot more frequently and that is not good. Reducing the players possibilities to plan ahead is never good in a tactical game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeOnUr6 Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 If it did (which is our first planned fix) then you wouldn't be complaining about the LOS system there. Fair enough. What about this? Will the fix solve also the asymmetry of this situation? http://i.imgur.com/2Xm7RAu.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 No, but it'll communicate how the system works better, so may let you avoid the dangerous situations better. As I said, we'll implement additional fixes if needed but we're doing this one first. I'm not saying that the LOF system will ever work perfectly using this system, but it certainly wasn't working perfectly before either (when people used to complain all the time about LOF being blocked for what they saw as no reason). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsisk Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Fair enough.What about this? Will the fix solve also the asymmetry of this situation? http://i.imgur.com/2Xm7RAu.jpg Yeah, that one always really frustrates me, especially when it's my guy on the outside of a UFO getting the 100% blocked message, and then the alien he was trying to fire at shoots him without moving during the alien's round and kills him. It doesn't spoil the game, but it is quite frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hovis Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Need more rocket launchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanelorn Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I am just adding my support for a better LOS system. Enemies are getting cover benefits in ridiculous situations because the LOS is not linear in 3D but rather just drawn a line that is bound to each major elevation plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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