Opening door should trigger reaction fire

[llunak]

Oh. Well, in that case you say basically the same that I said when I started this thread. But since it seems Chris doesn't want to do much about this besides the door closing, not even at least for higher difficulties, it looks like there's not much point in discussing this further.

Edited May 21, 2014 by llunak

[Kordanor]

Wow...first I have to say that I only played for 26 hours now, first on insane (a month or so to get a picture) and then on easy to get an idea about techs to be able to plan ahead when the game releases and I'll play on insane again.

My experience so far (V21): On Insane first I always positioned all my crew infront of the door, then opened it. Grenade and go. Until the 10th mission or so when one alien came out opening the door...which wasn't healthy for the dudes waiting there. From there on I kept my troops in some distance, and shot the door open. Just in range to throw grenades into it.

But after reading this thread...

-I did not know that opnening a door does not trigger reaction fire

-I did not know that only people in the aliens LOS could trigger reaction fire

-I did not know that only the unit which triggered reaction fire can be the target of reaction fire.

Now I am wondering...why do you build up on the Original UFO/XCom at all? Imho the combat was far superior in the Jagged Alliance games over the XCom games as it just felt far more realistic. And the whole discussion here feels extremely absurd being a JA disciple.

Just for those who don't know: In JA2 you don't have reaction fire but interruptions where you can chose your target but it's for the same purpose.

When does the opponent get reaction fire there? It's a mixture of several modifiers. The "reflex value" of the character is the Character level. This gives a bonus to the check but is not the most important factor.

Let's assume the opponent is standing on a Window in the other side of the room.

1. If he is looking out of the window (to you) his chances are much higher to get a reaction when you do an action and get spotted.

2. If you run past him, not looking to the window , he will have much higher chances

3. If you go past him, not looking to the window, he will still have higher chances

4. If you sidestep towars the window, meaning you move into his view while facing him, the chances of him gettin an interruption sink rapidly.

5. If you shoot at him while not in his range of view it might trigger an interruption if he didn't see you before. This is because you can actually see shooting people immediately after the shot is fired if they are not perfectly concealed. Like you can see the muzzle flash of a sniper, especially at night.

In addition, when he gets a interruption he is free to do whatever he likes. He could just run away. Or he could attack someone completely else.

Well, I know that sneaking and sidestepping are not a feature of Xenonauts and it doesn't want as much depth as Jagged Alliance. But it's already going a long way from the Original XCom further into the direction of Jagged Alliance.

So I am wondering why it jusn't take mechanics out of Jagged Alliance 2, which already proved that they work?

What would happen with Jagged Alliance mechanics in this situation of your soldiers opening a door?

If an alien looks into your direction it would immediatly trigger a check of your Initative against their initiative. If yours is higher, nothing happens. If their's is higher, you would get shot. And not just the guy openeing the door. All aliens who got an interruption/reactionfire would shoot at whatever they can reach, might even go to cover.

So it becomes mandatory to open the door from range or with TNT to make sure they don't have a chance to reactionfire-wipe you. It's already pretty easy to open the door with a Vehicle, RPG or even with an MG or a couple of rifle bursts, so that is not actually a big deal. The aliens would most likely not get a reaction shot or interruption but might if some of your dudes is standing in his viewing range (remember when the muzzle flash was there, the door was still closed, the bullets impacted later). And then when you attack him he might get an reaction fire as he would be aware of your presence when you shoot. But of course you would also need someone near enough to spot him, so you should try to get one at a time into view. Your main advantage? Cover when opening the door.

It's a delicate situation, but the most realistic and imho the most fun one.

Would it be frustrating? Probably for newbies. But then again you can just drastically reduce reaction chance of the opponents. But this would basically completely eliminate all chances of "exploiting the system" as it's simulating reality very closely instead of "gamey"/artificial mechanics, which need "gamey"/artificial resolutions like making the door not closable again...

Sorry for the long excurse and what might sound like Fanboydom. But I am kinda shocked about these mechanics in Xenonauts now. ^^

Edited May 22, 2014 by Kordanor

[Victor_Tadeu]

I totally agree with you, Konador.

The way reaction fires works now make it easy to exploid, especially with door. You almos ever get a chance to throw a stun grenade at the target before he can do anything to save his live (like run away). Maybe grenades should automaticly turn alien reactions (you now, they dont explode on impact).

About JA2... you forgot to add that it allows you to have a reaction move to a reaction move! So if an enemy tries to run when spotted and ending crossing another of your unit view, that unit may have a reaction move and can shoot him!

Just to add... Jagged Alliance 2 is by far the best squad-based game ever, I think. Even by today standards. The only point where it got exceeded in those 15 years since its release is in graphics. JA2 content, mechanichs, diversity, freedom, realism and even mod friendly structure still is unbeaten by any other game of the genre. More than that, never again a squad game was so punishing, challenging and rewarding like JA2. With mods, JA2 even get into the details of caring with your gear pockets size! And the mods kinda stop evolving without achieving the game full potential. There is some high advanced ballistics and weapon ergonomics stuff never fully modded by anyone. You can find those when you mod the weapons by yourself. It's stunning! JA2 team made a master piece never fully mastered by anyone! I think JA2 is very underrated and unknow despite all all its qualities.

But still, XCom and JA2 gameplay are different to me. It's not like two rivals trying to be the best at something. XCom is a more scifi arcade game, while JA2 tries to be a simulation of modern combat. And both franchises mate the same fate... the early games was fantastic, the "modern" sequels never ever was that great and lost more content than won with the time...

I really hope that at some point some guys do to JA2 something like the guys from Goldhawk are doing to XCom with Xenonauts. Since XCom Apocalypse in 1997, Xenonauts is the first game ever to give me the feel of playing a new true XCom again.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Victor_Tadeu

[Chris]

We haven't used the Jagged Alliance mechanics in this instance because we're remaking X-Com rather than Jagged Alliance. The two games are sutbly different in what they try and achieve (and how they do it) so what works well in one game will not necessarily work so well in the other.

[Larus]

But it would have been cool if you actually copied the Jagged Alliance 2 combat mechanics, they are really the best turn-bases tactical squat mechanics I have ever seen, beside the AI of course

[Chris]

Yeah, but the structure of the game is different. You can't just take the strategy layer of an X-Com game and put it on top of JA2 combat - they won't mesh together as well as you think they will.

[KevinHann]

But it would have been cool if you actually copied the Jagged Alliance 2 combat mechanics, they are really the best turn-bases tactical squat mechanics I have ever seen, beside the AI of course

While you raise an interesting point perhaps you will also acknowledge if Chris had picked up the JA2 combat mechanics over the X-COM ones, we'd be having a large number of disappointed faithful players commenting how this is a JA2 clone masked as an X-COM one. The entire concept behind Xenonauts is capturing the spirit of the old series and even though the combat could probably be perfected it would also be a compromise one step too far nullifying the core strength of the game. I for one commend Chris and the team for not going down the "wouldn't it be cool, if..." path as we've seen so many exciting projects ultimately fail because of that approach. It's pure modding territory.

[Larus]

While you raise an interesting point perhaps you will also acknowledge if Chris had picked up the JA2 combat mechanics over the X-COM ones, we'd be having a large number of disappointed faithful players commenting how this is a JA2 clone masked as an X-COM one. The entire concept behind Xenonauts is capturing the spirit of the old series and even though the combat could probably be perfected it would also be a compromise one step too far nullifying the core strength of the game. I for one commend Chris and the team for not going down the "wouldn't it be cool, if..." path as we've seen so many exciting projects ultimately fail because of that approach. It's pure modding territory.

Oh absolutly. Xenonauts is good for what it is or for what it wants to be.

I still would say that Xenonauts would be overall a better game with the JA2 combat mechanics but a unfaithful X-Com clone. You can't be everything

[KevinHann]

I'm secretly praying after the game breaks the million pounds sales bareer Chris will knuckle down and deliver a couple of expansions rather than buy a stake in Aston Villa or something (even though I do feel for him being so tired after so many years of development).

[Kordanor]

Well, not everything in JA2 is better (at least from the vanilla version). E.g. the suppression mechanics work quite good in Xenonauts. But Suppression also isn't anything I know the Original Game for either. ^^

Also Reaction Fire instead of interruptions is fine (automatic shots instead of custom turns) but I think the game could still profit from learning JA2 mechanics in terms of interruptions. Besides of being turn based which comes with some abstraction itself, some mechanics here are rather artificial. Of course not as artificial as in XCom EU - which is as artificial as it gets and has more in common with a Board Game than with JA2.

Bottom line is: I think that:

-Reactionfire should be based on a fixed character attribute if conditions for both parties are the same (seeing each other at same time meaning characters face each other). I think that is already in though I didn't understand the example with the used up initiative.

-If the target does not see you either because you are out of range or not in the facing direction and you shoot at it should have a lowered chance of reaction fire based on his initiative<>your initiative

-Every "visible" action should have a chance to trigger reaction fire. Running, Open a Door, whatnot

-Reactionfire should not be limited to the target who caused the reactionfire

-once the enemies are detected they should lose their "stay in ship" restriction, they might stay in because it's safer but they don't have to

I think if these mechanics were in place it would just feel natural. Of course there would be tactics against it, but it wouldn't feel like exploiting a dumb AI / weird game mechanic.

[StellarRat]

Shooting and/or moving both trigger reaction fire already. Opening/Closing doors is the only thing that doesn't. To me it makes little difference whether or not this is changed. If opening doors were to trigger reaction fire I'd just blast them all instead, something I do most of the time anyway.

[llunak]

Shooting and/or moving both trigger reaction fire already. Opening/Closing doors is the only thing that doesn't.

There are in fact many more things that don't trigger reaction fire. For example it's apparently pretty safe to run around with a shield and when finding an alien the alien is polite enough to wait for such a soldier to pull out a rifle out of the backpack.

[Alexandre Lange]

Is it possible to link reaction fire just to relative initiatives between units, no other trigger? In other words: to make reaction fire occurs ALWAYS when the initiative from the unit taking action drops below the initiative of any enemy that has the acting unit within LOS? So, units can react to ANYTHING thats it see that have less initiative then itself.

[KevinHann]

How about all units in sight except for the one opening the door suffer reaction fire? Firing squad problem solved

[Chris]

Is it possible to link reaction fire just to relative initiatives between units, no other trigger? In other words: to make reaction fire occurs ALWAYS when the initiative from the unit taking action drops below the initiative of any enemy that has the acting unit within LOS? So, units can react to ANYTHING thats it see that have less initiative then itself.

That is actually how the system should have worked, but actually it seems it has been implemented as a series of Initiative checks rather than it being a continual system. I'm not going to start tinkering with reaction fire again with a week left of development, though - reaction fire has caused a lot of crashes during development after we've made changes to it.

[StellarRat]

There are in fact many more things that don't trigger reaction fire. For example it's apparently pretty safe to run around with a shield and when finding an alien the alien is polite enough to wait for such a soldier to pull out a rifle out of the backpack.

That's a bug I think. Since you have no weapon it probably doesn't know how to calculate the initiative correctly. I'd report it.

[Alexandre Lange]

That is actually how the system should have worked, but actually it seems it has been implemented as a series of Initiative checks rather than it being a continual system. I'm not going to start tinkering with reaction fire again with a week left of development, though - reaction fire has caused a lot of crashes during development after we've made changes to it.

That's ok, just to know. It is not easily moddable too, I guess.

[Pipski]

(Apols for the thread necro.) Never played the original XCOM, never played JA. All I know is that when I've got a professional soldier doing nothing but point a machine gun at a door, if the door opens they should shoot the bad guy on the other side of it, and vice versa. Being able to open a door, shoot people who are waiting on the other side, and then close it again without risk is just ridiculous. I really hope someone mods it.

[Chthon]

If you don't have that, then the game would be a lot worse for it. Opening doors costs TU and if an alien is defending a room, it will likely be on full TU. Assuming equal reflexes and weapon modifiers, the alien will therefore almost always get the first shot. That may sound realistic but I doubt being immediately shot dead every time you open a UFO door would be super-enjoyable for the player.

It may sound realistic, but standard procedures for clearing rooms and buildings in the military rely on shock and awe. You sneak up to an entryway so as to leave the enemy unsure if you have arrived or not, then burst through all at once. Such mechanics aren't possible in a turn based environment, at least looking at exactly how you'd do it in real life, but hopefully the enemy not only isn't expecting it at that moment, but is completely surprised by it.

An example procedure that is often used or altered for regular use is a 4 man clearing team.

First all four stack up on the door against the building.

Then a silent cue is given to the 4th man to move up and prepare to kick the door in. He is there to cover the door to prevent an enemy from getting the jump on everyone else as well.

Then another silent count goes down, with the kick happening on the last count. The first 3 go through the door after the 4th kick it, and the forth follows through after.

Each moves to their trained corners of the room, searching for threats and shooting any that enter their field of fire as they go.

This is repeated for every room in a structure. Unfortunately it doesn't work so well in Xenonauts since the aliens don't ever seem to get surprised and are always expecting you. This forces me to adapt my tactics, but that's not necessarily a bad thing either.

[Gauddlike]

That is what the system is supposed to represent.

Opening the door is a surprise move so the enemy doesn't get to immediately react and shoot you dead before you can do anything else.

(Apols for the thread necro.) Never played the original XCOM, never played JA. All I know is that when I've got a professional soldier doing nothing but point a machine gun at a door, if the door opens they should shoot the bad guy on the other side of it, and vice versa. Being able to open a door, shoot people who are waiting on the other side, and then close it again without risk is just ridiculous. I really hope someone mods it.

The scenario you describe is not without risk as shooting does cause a reaction check so would likely get you shot if the alien can see you.

The problem there arises from squad sight.

Because you know where the aliens are you can choose not to use the soldier who is most at risk of getting shot and instead use someone safer, like the machine gunner stood 15 tiles away that the alien cannot react to.

The alternative is to get shot almost every time you open a door with someone on the other side of it.

You can minimise your risk by only opening doors with pistol users who have not spent any TU yet but once you have bypassed that initial reaction check then you are back to the same situation you have now.

Opening a door cost so few TU that you would almost never trigger a reaction shot.

[Aegeri]

Reading this discussion, I think the genuine problem here is that you can't blast holes in UFOs to make new entrances (or at least, all the C4 I've tried hasn't made a dent). If you could blow holes in a UFO like the original and make new routes in I don't think this is an issue. But as it is, I don't think you can and so therefore to prevent doors to UFOs being murderways you really have to leave it like this.

[FireStorm1010]

I had smae zero result experience with c4, but strangely enough tanks laser cannon or missiles seem to blow the door just fine.

[Aegeri]

I don't mean blowing up the door: I mean the actual walls of the UFO. In the original X-COM, I can't remember a time where I ever used the doors of the UFOs once I got explosives and particularly, flying armor. I would bomb a great big hole in the roof and go to town from the command center of the UFO downwards. I've tried using tons of C4 to blow holes in UFOs (not the door) and nothing works. Am I just being stupid or is this something you can't do?

If you can't do it, I don't want the system as it is to change then because that would be ridiculous (Xenonauts already favors defenders incredibly heavily). If you can do it, then I think that it might be pretty fair and really encourage taking along C4/rockets.

[kabill]

UFO hulls are immune to damage (kind of for technical reasons). However, see Fire in the Hole.

[Aegeri]

UFO hulls are immune to damage (kind of for technical reasons). However, see Fire in the Hole.

Ahhh. Here I was thinking I was entirely dense or hadn't found the right explosive.

I've got to say, making them immune to damage is an incredibly bad design choice and I feel necessitated the door decision as a result. Definitely going to try that mod though.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Aegeri