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[V21 Stable Steam - Ground Combat] Elevation Issues


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I have a few bugs, and also putting a couple balance concerns in here. Let me know if you want me to repost those in the Balance Forum.

Attached is the save file I found these issues in. (sorry for all the Andron's)

1) Map's need to have 1 elevation level higher than their maximum floor, so you can fly over obstacles on on highest elevation. In my example there is a 3rd floor roof with a wall. I can't get up there because I can't go above level 3.

1.jpg

2) Awning's are blocking 100% of shot's from roof top (and assuming it works the other way around, to the roof top). These should probably just have a 0% to block, or a low percentage and ignored if adjacent.

2.jpg

3)Holes shot in a roof aren't impassable and/or cause you to fall and/or make you fly over them.

3.jpg

4) Balance - Block percent from the roof for this park bench feels abnormally high. I understand how it's determined (I think), but it feels way off. Also, why does a park bench block more than a wall? (50% vs 45%)

4.jpg

Edit: 1 more thing

5) You can't land on the top of storage container's.

Elevation Issues.sav

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2.jpg

3.jpg

4.jpg

Elevation Issues.sav

1.jpg.07faf9c7433c7ab3098b85046d112c6f.j

2.jpg.723ad8e848fcfaeb5e0dc303cd9a368d.j

3.jpg.13f8349295020b6e9beab82c5d1fb5bf.j

4.thumb.jpg.384db13976d61767af293f73bd9d

Elevation Issues.sav

Edited by Muskrat
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1) Agree

2) Haven't seen, but something that might be connected to it:

My sniper on a roof with small walls around the edges. Other soldiers see some targets. Sniper cant target them because the alien is too close to the building and walls block line line LOS. Next turn, that alien moved one tile closer to the building and shot my sniper on the roof. This happend some more turns, despite my sniper could not target them. Lost the sniper due to that.

So either LOS-issue or alien-can-see-thru-walls-issue.

3) Agree, had also much more tile removed due to some explosion form below.

4) Agree, some objects seem to be quite problematic from elevated places. Had the same with a mailbox and a trashcan.

5) Agree. And drones get stuck in them and if container is destroyed the rubble is displayed above the soldier (see here).

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Elevation doesn't provide any advantage right now, except in rare situations.

It should offer a bonus against blocking objects below (they block less), but also provide a small defense bonus when shot from below. The bigger the elevation difference, the bigger the bonuses.

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Muskrat: Great post, all valid points and well presented

OzoneGrif: Definitely. The function should be like that of a shield (with less blocking from side shots) but in this case less blocking from shots taken from an angle above.

Thixotrop: Same thing has happened to me. I've all but given up on any multi-level approach. The aliens are never in the upper floors of buildings anyhow, and the issues that Muskrat highlights really discourage sniping. It's like the game wants to be played on only one level

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Elevation doesn't provide any advantage right now, except in rare situations.

It should offer a bonus against blocking objects below (they block less), but also provide a small defense bonus when shot from below. The bigger the elevation difference, the bigger the bonuses.

It could possibly be implemented the same way the increased blocking from being crouched was:

Aka - If you are on level 1, blocking for your shots is normal, and shots at you are normal.

Level 2 - your shots -15%, at you +15% (or some value)

Level 3 - your shots -30%, at you +30%.

etc..

This way there no calculation, it's just a static variable based on your position and target position, and the difference works itself out (aka, if both on level 2, you receive a -15% bonus, but also incur a +15% penalty and it's a wash.)

Edited by Muskrat
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I may be wrong but i believe this is a limitation of the game engine. I think it was mentioned in a post somewhere that the engine treats vertically angled shots as a number of horizontal steps. So when attacking you get a benefit over ground cover near your position but none over cover near the enemy, which explains why that bench seems abnormally high, at that point the shot is treated the same as if fired from ground level. You can see how the squares for the shot suddenly jump down a level just past the edge of the building.

I cant remember if they had an extra bonus added for elevation or not, perhaps it was just mentioned before but never implemented. At the moment using elevation is suicidal in my view as you get no cover bonus and are basically exposed to most of the battlefield.

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I may be wrong but i believe this is a limitation of the game engine. I think it was mentioned in a post somewhere that the engine treats vertically angled shots as a number of horizontal steps. So when attacking you get a benefit over ground cover near your position but none over cover near the enemy, which explains why that bench seems abnormally high, at that point the shot is treated the same as if fired from ground level. You can see how the squares for the shot suddenly jump down a level just past the edge of the building.

I cant remember if they had an extra bonus added for elevation or not, perhaps it was just mentioned before but never implemented. At the moment using elevation is suicidal in my view as you get no cover bonus and are basically exposed to most of the battlefield.

If that is the case, increasing the number of steps might be a good first step. An elevation of 2 would bypass cover out 4 squares and height 3 would bypass either 6 or 8 (2 x 3 or 2 ^ 3, whichever is bettered balances)

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No dev feedback on this? Some of these are pretty significant game play concerns for me. Especially #1 and 2.

Not a dev (obviously!), but 1,2 and 5 are fairly easy fixes I think.

1 should be easy to fix simply by making sure that all (the relevant) building submaps have an empty level above the highest level they occupy.

2 is simply a matter of changing the stopping chance on the relevant prop.

5 is more complicated, but could be done by adding an additional level to the container submaps, creating ground tiles based on the top of the container, and placing those ground tiles on the second level. (This is how things like the big rock props in the desert and arctic submaps work). This would be contingent on the height of the containers, though, as it could be that they wouldn't be at the right height to make standing/walking on the layer above look right.

All these fixes could be done using the submap editor, which means that even if they don't get patched officially it would be possible to make an unofficial patch for them.

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