A modest proposal why the Corsair loadout needs to change.

[Max_Caine]

In response to earlier comments about how the Foxtrot is in danger of being replaced by a 4-light missile Corsair. I don't believe they're in any danger at all of being dislodged by 4-missile Corsairs. Remember in part 7 the Foxtrot didn't have to work very hard to shoot at a Corvette. It was pretty much shoot and scoot. However in the following video to that, the Corsair had to get into "knife fight" range to shoot at the Corvette. Put a turret on the Corvette (or any captial ship) and the Corsair has to worry about that when a Foxtrot doesn't. Foxtrots and Condors are no-brainers when it comes to how you play them. In fact a cannon-armed Corsair in comparison to any of the other interceptors is generally more "work" to use. Here's a melee with a standard Corsair that I recorded and uploaded at the same time as the other videos I made.

[video=youtube;2ZzsFgjyuXA]

I made things more difficult for myself than I should have (note to self - never, ever press the roll button!), but in comparison to the Condor, the gat Corsair had more on its hands killing its heavy fighter than the Condor did.

Belmakor, in response to your comment each interceptor has 4 "slots". Cannons take up two "slots" on an interceptor, so an interceptor can never have more than 4 missile slots or 2 cannon slots or 2 missile and a cannon slot. Note that I say "slots". Missiles can have ammo as well - Trashman did a mod which gave missile slots more than one missile.

EDIT: StellarRat. Condors are guaranteed fighter killers. The evidence is there that they do it far more easily than a gat Corsair will.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Max_Caine

[quiescat]

max_caine, do you mind telling me how you edited the XML( guessing that's how you did it) to get 4 missiles on a corsair. i ask because this sounds like something i will love to have a mod to make this the norm. also i would like to test my theory on how easy it would be to replace foxtrots.

[Max_Caine]

Sure. It's very easy to do in Excel, but if you don't have Excel (like me) and everything else seems to go BLEURG when you try and run the file except text editors (also like me), here's the XML for my 4-missile Corsair.

   <Row>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">airplane.human.corsair</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">800</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">0</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">18000</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">2500</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">600</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">120</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">40</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">0</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">4</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">0</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">0</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">15,44;20,44;53,44;58,44</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">0</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">0</Data></Cell>   <Cell ss:Index="17"><Data ss:Type="Number">200</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">0.4</Data></Cell>   <Cell ss:StyleID="s67"><Data ss:Type="Number">100000</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">19.739999999999998</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">11.86</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">19142</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">40</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">POWERPLANT.AleniumRepulsion </Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">X-37 Corsair</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">77900</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">AV.SIDEWINDER;AV.SIDEWINDER;AV.SIDEWINDER;AV.SIDEWINDER</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">300;100;300;750;800;100;800;750</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">aircraft/corsair</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">aircraft/aircombat/corsair</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">70</Data></Cell>   <Cell ss:StyleID="s69"><Data ss:Type="String">Yes</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">1</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">Yes</Data></Cell>   <Cell ss:StyleID="s69"><Data ss:Type="String">No</Data></Cell>   <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">Yes</Data></Cell>   <Cell ss:Index="39"><Data ss:Type="Number">600</Data></Cell>  </Row>

The lines you want to pay attention to are:

<Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">2</Data></Cell>

<Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">0</Data></Cell>

This sets the slots, currently at 2 cannon slots. The light missile slots are right below it.

<Cell><Data ss:Type="String">20,44;53,44</Data></Cell>

This sets where the weapons will shoot from on the actual aircraft (my values could stand to be tweaked, tbh)

<Cell><Data ss:Type="String">AV.AUTOCANNON;AV.AUTOCANNON</Data></Cell>

This sets the basic missile type of the weapon. So for light missiles, that's AV.SIDEWINDER.

<Cell><Data ss:Type="String">700;100;700;750</Data></Cell>

This sets where the missile select box is set on the Geoscape aircraft hangar screen. (Again, values could stand to be tweaked).

But if you have Excel, then you want to look under the columns: Cannons and NormalWeapons (to change from Cannons to light missiles), Weaponposiitons (for air combat), Loadout (for base weapon types), and SlotPositions (for the hangar weapon boxes).

EDIT: I have a whole mods-worth of aircraft changes (aptly named the Flying Circus). If you want to download it and look at the code to see what can be done, I wouldn't mind.

EDIT 2: Here's the link to the mod thread. The reason I link you to that, is because I made some videos which showcase some of the Flying Circus changes I made. I've changed a lot since then, but I really need to update that for all the tweaks I've been adding.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Max_Caine

[quiescat]

thanks alot

[lifehole]

Maybe add more cannons or more HP? The corsair does not look the type to mount tons of missiles tbh.

[kabill]

I've been giving the Corsair some attention in my most recent game and actually I'm happy with them as they are. While their overall firepower is admittedly lower than the Condor, I'm not entirely certain this matters.

The key advantage - for me anyway - of the Corsair is that it can reliably deal with multiple alien fightercraft by itself:

- The Condor only gets one 'easy' fighter kill; after that it's down to its cannon and therefore substantially worse than a Corsair at dealing with any others.

- The Corsair, on the other hand, I will rely on to take out all the enemy fightercraft it engages: it's speed and durability are such that there's not really any risk.

- The Corsair can also engage and destroy three Interceptors by itself with plasma cannons, while a Condor must wait for the MAG cannon. If you've been relying on Condors to take out fightercraft you might therefore find yourself under-resourced come February.

Note that if you changed the Corsair to have four light missiles, it could *never* beat three alien fightercraft by itself (unless you charge them and fire missiles at point-blank range, I suppose!).

My point, then, is that the Corsair works much better than the Condor as a lone gun. It has less firepower, but a Corsair can reliably deal with large numbers of alien fightercraft by itself. As such, it not only deals with fighter patrols excellently but can effectively escort 2 Foxtrots which, as a squadron, has comparable killing power to 1 Foxtrot and 2 Condors. Admittedly, 2 Foxtrots and 1 Condor has more firepower, but will deal with fighter-escorts less reliably (it can be hard to catch the second escort after engaging the first; and if you accidentally screw up at all with the Condor you lose the engagement and probably your Foxtrots too).

2 Foxtrots and 1 Corsair also has the advantage of being able to keep pace with mid-game UFOs and their range is more suited to Base-Upgraded radar ranges.

So all this together has made the Corsair my fighter-plane of choice. 1 Corsair and 2 Foxtrots seems to provide very effective coverage through the mid-game (December-February). And while you could prioritise researching the Marauder and therefore skip the Corsair, I think there's risk enough in that (in terms of lost research in other areas and having to make do with weaker air-power for longer) that it's not an obviously superior strategy.

[victorix58]

@kabill - that was also my perception of the Corsair, i.e. a specialization aircraft.

I liked the corsair's quickness while I waited for marauders so I employed my corsair to shoot down loan scouts while i sent my teams of condors to deal with larger problems

[Benscachar]

I think if you buffed cannon range by 500 every iteration after autocannon it would resolve a lot of issues.

[Chris]

Interesting discussion. I agree the Corsair probably needs a buff, though...and I think the fundamental idea of it having two cannons is more interesting than it having four missiles.

I like the way the Condor has equal range on the missiles and the cannons, so in the dev version I've buffed cannons to have the same range as the equivalent light missile right the way through the game as Benscachar suggests.

Given that change, how much of a relative damage nerf to light missiles and buff to cannons is needed to make the Corsair a viable improvement over the Condor in most situations (without increasing the overall damage of the Condor)? I'm open to either flat-out increasing damage or just adding more ammo capacity.

[Max_Caine]

I'll have a go at modding in that change myself so I can have some data to play with but off the top of my head, I'd say that more ammo would be the way to go. The Corsair now fills the role of the Saracen, a brawler that has sufficent HP to stay "in play" for the time needed to kill a target. If you buff cannon damage then the Condor and more importantly the Marauder looses value in terms of light missiles. One might argue that with buffed cannon damage all the Maurader needs are heavy missiles as the cannon would do the rest of the work, whereas with more ammo the Maurader with a heavy missile/cannon combo has to do more work taking out interceptors than a Maurader with light missiles/cannon, and I think there should be a significant difference between the two.

[huhn]

don't buff range but give it high ammo like 80 for laser. this way it can deal a lot of dmg but it takes dmg while doing it. or add 1 simple rocket.

[Max_Caine]

All interceptors have 4 slots. Cannons take up 2 slots. Therefore, you can't add any more stuff when you have 2 cannons. To have 5 slots would require a redesign of a lot of things to do with air combat, which I'm guessing isn't happening.

[jeon]

I'm thinking increasing cannon ammo to 80 and reducing the damage of light missiles by 20% (200/300/500/750 -> 160/240/400/600) should do the trick. The overall effect will be 1/3 more damage for the corsairs, a bit more damage for condors with higher tier cannons, and a bit less damage for condors when cannon tech is lagging behind missiles. Also, you should probably reduce plasma cannons to 13 damage and mag cannons to 20 damage per shot.

[Xenomorph]

This thread makes a good point, but as it is, the Corsair is a good replacement for the Condor hands down, and an aircraft that will see it through the end of the game. Trading off some damage for durability is more that a great deal.

[Grazgul]

Interesting discussion. I agree the Corsair probably needs a buff, though...and I think the fundamental idea of it having two cannons is more interesting than it having four missiles.

I like the way the Condor has equal range on the missiles and the cannons, so in the dev version I've buffed cannons to have the same range as the equivalent light missile right the way through the game as Benscachar suggests.

Given that change, how much of a relative damage nerf to light missiles and buff to cannons is needed to make the Corsair a viable improvement over the Condor in most situations (without increasing the overall damage of the Condor)? I'm open to either flat-out increasing damage or just adding more ammo capacity.

I'm inclined to agree that what makes a fighter a fighter is it's cannon. Can I throw in a suggestion for the Corsair?

The two ideas that leap to mind (for me) that would have the corsair valuable but not over the top.

1. Have two types of fighter cannons eg;

Gatling Cannon

Twin Gatling Cannon (The Torpedo equivalent of a cannon)

Dedicated fighters would be more useful as their cannons are stronger vs interceptors.

2. Give the Corsair a single light missile

Change the hard-points to the following;

2x Cannon on the left/right fuselage

1x Light Missile on the undercarriage.

I think the second option is the most simple and effective to implement. 2 Corsairs would be able to get an easy kill on a fighter then turn on the remaining escort and finish it very quickly.

[quiescat]

for what ever its worth if you end up giving it more ammo as the go to for buffing. is there any way to lower its fuel consumption rate in combat. i am not looking for a buff as much as i am looking to put it on part with foxtrots. right now foxtrots are fire and forget so low fuel means almost nothing to them, corsair you have crowbar around some for it to do any thing to any non-fighter craft reliably. not sure if fuel consumption can be edited individually

[TornadoADV]

I guess the simple fix is to decrease fuel consumption speed in combat (as previously suggested) and to double onboard cannon ammuntion.

[kabill]

not sure if fuel consumption can be edited individually

Don't think it is, but there's no reason why you couldn't increase it's range (which would have the same effect if the Corsair was paired with a Foxtrot).

[Xenomorph]

Or make it a choice when it's been researched, more ammo or longer range, and it stays that way.

[Chris]

Fuel consumption in combat is being halved for all interceptors next build anyway. For the Corsair, I'm going to try upping the cannons to 80 ammo coupled with the increasing cannon range I mentioned in my prior post.

Hopefully that'll make them a bit more powerful without changing the game too much. You'll be able to see how it all plays for yourself on Friday.

[thixotrop]

What about making the Corsair able to do extreme turns. Not complete 180° on the spot but much much steeper than the Condor. Therefore the Corsair is a Condor with much more agility in close combat range. Together with two cannons it will be like a shotgunner.

[Caaygun]

Corsair needs to have more or at least equal total damage than Condor that's for sure. I think it should keep its missiles. An extra cannon may be added if you really want to make it more powerful but it needs missiles to give it the versatility it had, with 1 cannon and 2 misiles:

1- It can take out 3 fighters with taking damage.

2- It can take out 2 fighters and run away with little damage.

3- It has good damage output against capital ships.

With 2 cannons, it can only do the 2nd one.

[StellarRat]

Corsair needs to have more or at least equal total damage than Condor that's for sure. I think it should keep its missiles. An extra cannon may be added if you really want to make it more powerful but it needs missiles to give it the versatility it had, with 1 cannon and 2 misiles:

1- It can take out 3 fighters with taking damage.

2- It can take out 2 fighters and run away with little damage.

3- It has good damage output against capital ships.

With 2 cannons, it can only do the 2nd one.

Are you sure about that? Even with 80 ammo per cannon?

[kabill]

80 ammo per cannon does solve the issue, at least the first one. Although a Corsair with Plasma Cannons can take out three of any level of alien fightercraft already.

(The main 'issue' is that there's a jump with Heavy Fighters such that three of them can't quite be destroyed using two Laser Gattling Guns. A single Condor with the same level of tech can't take three Heavy Fighters at the moment either, though, and will get shot up by the last fighter much worse.)

[Caaygun]

How about 40 ammo per cannon but have two of them plus 2 missiles for the corsair. Then it improves damage from the condor and removes the issue where a condor could kill a Scout but a corsair couldn't. 80 ammo per cannon makes condor overpowered early game giving it almost as much damage as the foxtrot. This would perhaps also incur some more balancing regarding its cost.