Ground Combat Balance - V22 Experimental Build 1

[dpelectric]

My only complaint is game instability. I'm having a crash every other GC. So I get frustrated and quit

Really? I haven't seen this at all. In maybe 80-90 missions so far I had the game crash on me exactly once. There has to be some kind of explanation why it's happening to you constantly and almost never to me. Your hardware? Other programs running in the background? Did you mess around with any of the config files? Spill coffee on your keyboard? I know next to nothing about computers, but there has to be some logical reason for that happening

[StellarRat]

Really? I haven't seen this at all. In maybe 80-90 missions so far I had the game crash on me exactly once. There has to be some kind of explanation why it's happening to you constantly and almost never to me. Your hardware? Other programs running in the background? Did you mess around with any of the config files? Spill coffee on your keyboard? I know next to nothing about computers, but there has to be some logical reason for that happening

No, none of the above. Other people are having similar problems. I suspect it may have to do with graphics, etc... something that is really hardware dependent. V22 E1 is what I'm playing on Win 7 64-bit.

[frank_walls]

I'm enjoying the aggressiveness of the aliens, but it's just a little too much. What's the point of having these large intricate maps to fight on if you never make it more than a few steps out of your landing craft before you're surrounded?

However, I haven't made up my mind yet. I've only been getting terror missions so far, and those are rough - with the only tactic that's worked so far being to hole up somewhere and wait. It's fun at first because I have to change my tactics, but it might be nice to see their tactics change. Is it possible to have different AI depending on the map? For example on one mission the aliens may be hyper aggressive, but on another the same race would be less aggressive?

[frank_walls]

Okay, I'm sorry, but this just isn't fun now.

[telas]

I don't think that having "camping" aliens scattered around the map necessarily is going against the principles of military strategy. Sure, throwing everything you have at the enemy all at once is one effective strategy, but lying in wait and ambushing the enemy is also an effective strategy. This idea could have the potential to be really fun if the "campers" were placed in effective locations, behind doors, in the aforementioned nooks and crannies of farmhouses, and would create those memorable moments of surprise that this game seems to be lacking at the moment.

[kabill]

But the AI is acting intelligently. What you are asking for goes against solid principles of military strategy. Attacking piecemeal goes against the principle of mass and is in essence giving your opponents local superiority at a minimum.

First, let's not conflate 'intelligence' with 'fun'. You could make the same argument about the strategic side of the game: the AI should just overwhelm earth with all their resources immediately rather than attacking piecemeal. But they don't, because if they did the game would suck (indeed, there wouldn't be a game)*. Currently, the AI provides for one kind of fun: a tough, large-scale firefight. That's fine, I have no problem with that. It's the bit in-between that I find problematic and the bit I would like to see improved, because at the moment I don't enjoy it very much.

Second, I agree with you: it is smart to have a concentrated force. This is one of the reasons - to be really, really clear - that *I really like what the AI is doing at the moment*. It's much better than previously, where you were larging picking off individuals without any real risk.

But third, I also completely disagree with you: it's stupid to deploy all your force in one place and not have support/spotters/snipers/skirmishers/whatever else to ward off flanking manoevres/scout/whatever. It's also stupid to deploy all your troops together when your opponent is attacking you with heavy weapons, since all your doing is getting everyone pinned down by machinegun fire or obliterated by rockets (I had a mission where all non-UFO-bound aliens were within a Pulse Laser blast radius of one another. I killed half of the aliens on the map pretty much in one shot).

Again, then, to be very clear: what the AI is doing at the moment is fantastic. But a consequence - for me anyway (and apparently I'm not alone) - is that it leaves a hollow middle to the missions where nothing is happening other than rushing troops to the UFO doors. During this time, I'm not playing a game; I'm clicking a series of buttons so I can get to the next bit of the game I get to play. In comparison with the OG, there's no tension or suspense: I don't need to crawl forwards, to clear rooms, to get my guys in cover, to save TUs for reaction fire, or anything. No risk, no danger, just clicking. There's a big explosion of action, then nothing. And it's a shame, because the game is otherwise great.

To overcome this issue, then, I think it would be a good idea to have a small number of aliens (2-3 would do, at most) who typically do not fight with the main force, or if they do who keep a distance and retreat/hide rather than charging forwards. This doesn't even have to always be the case (it won't be, because sometimes the spawns will put all the 'skirmisher' aliens near the front); it just needs to be often enough that you cannot be certain you won't get ambushed or sniped at by a hidden alien somewhere. In other words, it should be enough that I actually have to care about the bit between killing the main force and getting to the UFO.

*I know there's an in-game justification for what the aliens do, but in the final analysis this is an excuse the make the game fun, not actually a solid reason. There's plenty of other ways the Praetors could accomplish their goal without also leaving themselves vulnerable to being utterly wiped out.

EDIT: Hmm, that's a lot more text than it felt like writing it. Sorry, and apologies for the tone as well. I think it's more aggressive/ranty than I want it to be.

kabill, I'm not singling out any particular person, but the impression I get is that the aliens are simultaneously too passive and too aggressive and that the desired state is to have all the battles paced, with (say) half dozen baddies thrown at the player then move along a bit and change the scenery (from "farmhouse" to "open field", rather than "farm" to "UFO"), then another half dozen baddies thrown at the player, etc. etc., just like in Streets of Rage when you battle some baddies and after everyone is dead, the big red GO! GO! GO! points at you to move to the next battle, which is pretty much what EU2012 did. You always knew where the next battle was going to be, it was always against a small, dangerous but manageable knot of baddies, and there was always something else to fight. I mean, I read threads where one guy is complaining that the UFOs need baddies in all the levels, then I read another thread where a guy is asking why the baddies on the top level aren't helping the baddies on the lower levels!

Fair enough. I'm hoping I've made it clear that this wasn't my position?

[Gijs-Jan]

I've been reading through the posts, and I actually agree with both opinions.

Evidently, the more aggressive AI is being received well, it's the side effect (empty map) that's unwelcome.

I agree with kabill in the sense that the best way to solve it is to either add, or force some stragglers to remain behind.

I'll take a look at it and try to present an alternative to Chris.

[Gauddlike]

If the aliens communicate by sending out a request for help when they attack or get attacked could that be limited in some way?

For example if they call for help but only from the nearest two aliens then you won't be getting every alien on the map responding, just a small group.

If you kill the alien quickly then their friends will not be able to come to their aid.

If however it takes you a long time to kill each alien you might find waves of reinforcements coming to assist them.

Maybe this could also be set per race so Androns may only request help from the nearest friendly unit while Ceasans might call three or four.

This shouldn't necessarily chain though to prevent the player attacking a single enemy and pulling them in a couple at a time to a machine gun nest.

[StellarRat]

First, let's not conflate 'intelligence' with 'fun'.

If everyone really wants this "fixed" my suggestion is to up the alien count by a about 50% and add an AI "mode" called "delaying action" or "skirmisher". Aliens with this mode will take pot shots and retreat back toward the alien ship (or away from the Xenonauts in the case of terror and base missions) whenever they are pressed by the Xenonauts i.e. the range to the Xenonauts becomes less than "long". They will prioritize keeping their distance and cover above everything else. These aliens will "fill" the middle of the map. They can even be placed up front as scouts/skirmishers.

BTW, I've never conflated anything you said with intelligence, kabill. LOL forgive me couldn't resist! Actually, I agree that in a game fun is the obvious objective. Although, I like straight simulations too. I think OUR solution (since you suggested something similiar) is a good way to accomplish both objectives and even makes some sense from a "realism" standpoint.

Edited March 31, 2014 by StellarRat

[kabill]

If everyone really wants this "fixed" my suggestion is to up the alien count by a about 50% and add an AI "mode" called "delaying action" or "skirmisher". Aliens with this mode will take pot shots and retreat back toward the alien ship whenever they are pressed by the Xenonauts i.e. the range to the Xenonauts becomes less than "long". They will prioritize keeping their distance and cover above everything else. These aliens will "fill" the middle of the map. They can even be placed up front as scouts/skirmishers.

Something like that would be ideal. I'd suggested a few passive (less aggressive?) aliens because I figured that would produce a similar effect but with less effort (which might matter given the game's impending release?). But if there's time and resources to do something more complex, that would be awesome.

BTW, I've never conflated anything you said with intelligence, kabill.

This is wise.

[StellarRat]

Something like that would be ideal. I'd suggested a few passive (less aggressive?) aliens because I figured that would produce a similar effect but with less effort (which might matter given the game's impending release?). But if there's time and resources to do something more complex, that would be awesome.

I actually have great faith that Gjis-Jan can do this without too much work. I'm sure 99% of the code needed is already there. It's just a matter of changing the "value" of certain tiles and the "danger rating" of the Xenonauts to make the area around them more unattractive to the alien skirmishers. That will make them want to stay a good distance away from the Xenonauts.

[kabill]

I actually have great faith that Gjis-Jan can do this without too much work. I'm sure 99% of the code needed is already there. It's just a matter of changing the "value" of certain tiles and the "danger rating" of the Xenonauts to make the area around them more unattractive to the alien skirmishers. That will make them want to stay a good distance away from the Xenonauts.

It's quite possible. My knowledge of coding is minimal (and my knowledge of AI coding even less!), so I don't really have any conception as to how difficult these things are in practice.

[vaultdweller]

Is there any possibility to vary the AI semi-randomly between missions? That way, sometimes the aliens would be more aggressive, and sometimes less aggressive. The desired effect of this is to keep the player from predicting how the aliens will behave. For example, the percentage of aliens that act as "stragglers" could very from one mission to the next. You wouldn't know until you start deploying whether your men will be facing an onslaught, or setting out for some "search and destroy" recon.

[StellarRat]

Is there any possibility to vary the AI semi-randomly between missions? That way, sometimes the aliens would be more aggressive, and sometimes less aggressive. The desired effect of this is to keep the player from predicting how the aliens will behave. For example, the percentage of aliens that act as "stragglers" could very from one mission to the next. You wouldn't know until you start deploying whether your men will be facing an onslaught, or setting out for some "search and destroy" recon.

That's a good idea, however, IMO the way the aliens "react" should probably be based on how many troops they have. For a light scout and scout recoveries I'd make them all skirmishers. It's pointless to try to defeat an enemy that is no doubt superior to you in a stand up battle, so a delaying strategy is probably best all the way back to the ship. For landing ships and cruisers a mixed strategy probably is best. For the larger ships, terror and base missions, the current aggressive "all in" strategy makes the most sense since aliens will probably have superior numbers.

[dpelectric]

Evidently, the more aggressive AI is being received well, it's the side effect (empty map) that's unwelcome.

I agree with kabill in the sense that the best way to solve it is to either add, or force some stragglers to remain behind.

Great! That's all some of us are asking for. Please though ADD the "stragglers", as I personally don't want to see the big initial firefight emasculated

[frank_walls]

That's why Frank Walls is having such difficulties with the terror mission. The AI is REALLY good.

It's not that the AI is good, it's just overwhelming. I can pass the terror missions, but it takes at least 5 to 6 attempts (not including restarts because of crashes). That's just too may on Normal difficulty.

Of course I haven't gone after a downed UFO yet. I get a terror mission every few days because I don't have any good aircraft ( a result of minimal amounts of alenium) and can't shoot down enough ships.

[StellarRat]

It's not that the AI is good, it's just overwhelming. I can pass the terror missions, but it takes at least 5 to 6 attempts (not including restarts because of crashes). That's just too may on Normal difficulty.

Of course I haven't gone after a downed UFO yet. I get a terror mission every few days because I don't have any good aircraft ( a result of minimal amounts of alenium) and can't shoot down enough ships.

Maybe I should have said it's much more aggressive now so it's way better than it used to be. The aliens have always had superior numbers in terror missions, but they didn't gang up on you, so you could pick them off a couple at a time. Now, they will swarm you and numbers make a huge difference in that scenario.

[Xenomorph]

Maybe I should have said it's much more aggressive now so it's way better than it used to be. The aliens have always had superior numbers in terror missions, but they didn't gang up on you, so you could pick them off a couple at a time. Now, they will swarm you and numbers make a huge difference in that scenario.

Yup, terror missions are great now really wish there were more of them, after waves.

AI in ufo crashes could be similar, actually. These feel like cake compared to terrors, we get to pick them one at a time.

[Xenomorph]

About the Sebillians regenerating HP, it's a great idea. And funny thing, the HP regen glitch caused by it it's actually NOT bad at all; it could be turned into a feature, maybe?

Sebillian stem cells are synthetic, all aliens should have access to it, but due to physiologic differences, it's not as effective on other races.

This coupled with what's been mention before on this thread, could complement the AI and make map progression actual progression; if overwhelmed or injured and outnumbered, aliens will retreat to join with others or to heal. This means kill them quick and well dead, of face them later in a bunch turtled outside or inside the ufo.

This may be predictable, but just as everything else is.

Anyways, being ganked to death as in Apocalypse is not necessarily a bad thing its one of the things that keeps drawing me back, those "OH S**" moments where all the sudden they are all over the place. This is exactly what's making terror missions great. Kill or be killed, stupid Aliens will not get to keep the planet.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Xenomorph

[Arghy]

Just had my first base assault, sebs i had to save scum once because of a stupid pathing error on my part. It was super fun but once again i failed to bring enough ammo--ammo should be lighter so you can pack your soliders to the gills and there should def be more prompts telling you to bring more ammo.

The base commander took 3 goddamn gas nades to bring down, it was pretty absurd--hit markers also need to be better animated because you'd just see lasers disappearing into sebs without any sort of feedback. I had my first CTD shortly afterward which is annoying--hoping it friggin auto saved because i dont want to redo that base assault.

[Xenomorph]

On Medals

There has been discussion on several about how soliders are "defenceless" verses psychic powers, and (correct me if I'm wrong) I remember, bravery is supposed to be the resistance stat to psychic power. Well, you can't "train" bravery except under two conditions. 1) when one of your soliders freak out. 2) When you get a medal. It's far more likely that a solider will get a medal than he will freak out, seeing as how psychic powers are limited to 2 races, and you don't even experience psychic powers until corvettes. Therefore, unless the player delberately makes his soliders freak out medals become the most likely progression path for soliders to "train" bravery. With that in mind, could the bravery stat boosts from medals be increased? While some medals offer a +3 or a +2, most only offer a +1. You can get around, what.. 15 bravery from medals? That doesn't seem fair, in relation to the way bravery levels up.

Lets hope its part of the psi balance, powerleveling bravery is a very time consuming chore, not to mention potentially dangerous.

The Sentinel and Predator should provide a somewhat +5 bravery buff, for being the top notch of whatever armors the Xenonauts will ever get.

ANDOR

Soldiers should automatically get a +1 bravery for every large UFO, and +2 for every terror mission (there really aren't many of those) or large UFO where psi powers are involved (instead of +1 for non psi UFO) , them being directly affected or not. And maybe an extra +1 IF its a landed (not shot down) UFO.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Xenomorph

[kabill]

It'd be simpler to have bravery increase in a similar manner to how health increases (i.e. for every x other stat increases the soldier gets; basically a function of number of missions the soldier goes on). To me, it stands to reason that one's bravery would increase more as a result of experience and confidence than as a result of seeing all your comrades die around you or being brain-melted by unstoppable alien mind powers.

[Mercent]

How about increase 1 bravery for every mission? It is unlikely to have many soldiers surviving 50 missions to gain a 100 pts in bravery. (I lost my colonel who has done 49 mission. Poor fellow, he was planning to celebrate reunion with his family after the 50th mission).

Edited April 1, 2014 by Mercent

[dpelectric]

I lost my colonel who has done 49 mission

You lost a 49-mission colonel??? Ouch!!!

[Mercent]

You wont believe how he died. He was shot three times point blank in the back by a recruit with a plasma rifle who couldn't take the pressure and decided to berserk. Damn those psions.