Discussing Psychic Powers

[Gauddlike]

Hopefully that will change when LoS resets each turn as it sounds like the same problem just with longer persistence than intended.

[lifehole]

Gentlemen,

In my opinion, the introduction of Psi powers has dramatically changed the balance and playability of Xenonauts.

For the record, I'm playing Normal on V21 Stable. I have just started May.

My objections to Psi are twofold, First, there is no defense against it. Of course, in the OG you could train your soldiers to have some resistance to Psi, and even determine who were susceptable and who weren't; however, as near as I can tell, no amount of Bravery or Morale will keep a squad member from becoming an Enemy, which brings me to my second point.

I take no joy in watching my squad randomly shoot itself to pieces over and over again. The present implementation of Psi has taken a tactic based game and turned it into a random crapshoot. Which squad member will turn into an alien and which other squad member will kill him? I have watched my squad be chewed up twice by Psi bearing aliens. That leaves me with a bunch of noobs that can't move and can't shot straight, and against May-class Aliens. I'd rather watch tiger sharks eat penguins.

BTW, if you insist on turning one of my squad into an enemy, please shade him or her red as you do when the "Alien In View" icon is clicked or swiped.

AND if I never see "PlayerX is filled with Dread" again, it will be way too soon. If you want to sap a third of my TU's just freakin' do it.

I understand that in the Valkerie era with sixteen squad members, the countervailing force must be equivalent size, so the calculations to place them must be extreme. Still, the time it takes for the Alien Turn is reminiscent of the times in V19. Please speed it up. Watching banners of Dread is a waste of time.

In closing, I suggest you give me the chance to train my troops against Psi. Failing that, backing it off to LOS and a 20-ish tiles might work.

Just to reiterate, the Psi implementation I have seen has taken a wonderful turn based, tactic-centric game and turned it into a random mishmash that eventually devolves into "Why do I care?" I know you can restore the balance. I await your next evolution, but I'll be Xeno-less in the interim.

Sandy

Unfortunately, I share the same exact opinion.

[Kirill Selivanov]

For me, the problem (even if the defence against psi would be upgraded) is hot enough and stays alive and funny.

If it could be done, i ask, please, make MC only 1-turn like. So in the next turn - my soldier returns to me (if he\she survive counter-fire or else). Or it is really unreal.

Plus one Caesian Psionic could control 1...2....3....4 ets people at once. Why than he doesn't attack them all in one turn if he has so much power? TUS low? Whom you try to laugh?

As i understand the reality of our world (xenonauts is a simplified copy of it) - The thing in which you aim your view(in serious matters, like dangerous situation or creation, that took all your psyhic resources) takes all your attention.

So... i feel some strange with that.

Trying to ride on new and strange "human brains" for aliens would and MUST take all their attention and TUS (1 try - all TUS newer the less). "Go and make" brainwash for 3-5 buddyes of the "victim" simultaneously - couldn't be folowed from the turn time (look, at one turn - you move, or fire just 1-3 times or just stay alive - its seconds of real warfare - remember that!!! one-three heart beats or even less!).

Okey... MC - 100 TUS, berserk 70%, unnerved 50% - Its the weapon! Long range rifle gives only one 3x aim shot at once. You focuse when aim - yes? So the MC-psiker does too. He doesn't see and interested in other problems... am i right?

So, i ask only one aim\turn for the psy-attack.

And... so as it look:

+Yes succesfull MC gives to the psyhic the vision of its victim (so all the aliens see it... damn telepathy). But when the victim frees (it must! it is not the clone, he has his own will, or it becomes meat-automat that must be controlled all the time - like remote device) - its personal vison range dissapear to all aliens in the "next" to freeing turn (so psyhic could make a second try on the SAME victim - its brains are just hot, but not all others... or may be else - as devs think better - for me - all others must dissaper for tha psyhic)

+Yes MC gives full control by the victims body (but may be not full? actions - fire, drop weapon, run... when succed, but with TUS that he HAVE, not some "Time-realted-anomaly") And if MC fails (if fail is countable like 50-150% damage againd morale\bravery stat) than - in half-fail (psy damage 51%<99% morale) - the victim becomes berserk. and if totally (1%<50%) - unneved? - brainwashing doesn't goes without aftermath)

-No MC granting total control till the battles end!!! One battle and the soldier that was trained to so much time is wiped out because of something unstopable issues (its just strage that - why "we" need to terrorise humas and make that all dansing if we can just "MC" tham all?). So only one turn with may be acces to repeat in the next turn and granting less morale\bravery penetration abilities of the victim.

-No fast MC-repeat! Only one victim in personal control (it could be caped by all turn TUS on the 1-try MC or 1 turn-long MC, or in best case - both that issues - so than the problem of 3-5 psionics wouldn't be so fearsome and they could happen even in corvete in numbers more than one with no problem! Psy-battle becmomes nervous but more tactical and not god-like.

Than we can settle even that idea:

- Psionic(violet) - cast unnerved as max possible level of the threat. If he fails - none happened (or may be little morale\TUS loss)

- Psi-officer - berserk max (remember - NO time-related-anomalies (when MC victim gains 100% TUS for his actions). If his attack fails, than victim becomes unnerved. May be tha psyker gains the vision 1-turn info in that case as a bonus.

- Psi-leader - MC max, as i said, in the failure - berserk or unneved +vision.

And about dread... damn strange thing that doesn't give any value for me. Its just make things to xenonauts twise heavier... gravitational-dread? Thats dread makes... the rifle to 2x weigth - but is it gravitation real?). May be its better to make the vision ranges lesser (-1/2/3... range) or make that dread like area weapon - not for all the time? And it must cost not only 100% TUS, but eat 100% on the second turn too or elselike.

Or as you see in battleship: you challenge elites (many, havies and aggresive) and has -33% TUS for surplus (MC.... and else things is a little bonus, because they are optional). So there are so much fun... but that is not the game - its full domination and doesn't give a chance for win (none) - i charged the battleship and at the 4-th round from 16th soldiers - there was only 6 (4 paniked, 2 was wounded) because of one-turn 5 MC-s succesful attacks (99+ morale!).

No game. (+may be its a bug, but my unit on the roof (second flour) was visible to enemy's form first turn but he wasn't MC and when the aliens saw the others - in the next turn the MC cascade began.

As i said - psihic could proceed with its MC of victim(in the next turn) if: he makes the same MC attack on the next turn only on the SAME victim and succed! None he see else (or any that he see in he gain vision of victim, as i told)

Else - if he fail in the second turn - he could repeat the attack again only in the situation - he\or other alien see the target victim by their eyes.

And more/

Psi-attacks cost TUS of psyhic. Good. As i understand aliens doesn't has bravery-morale stats (they are clones or machines - so get off that stupid things) - thats ok, but they doesn't make miracles! They ane not gods - the UFOs techs are reworked, all are killable and creckable... so^

Psionic that could move, fire, mind control one\many enemy's and cast other psy-things simultaneosly in one turn - is a danm shit miracle! It usefull for gods, not for clones or some warbreeded meat as i think.

May be it could be usable by praetors, but even they are not gods, just piece of alien shit that have techs so weak that non-space race could take tham off. So no miracles! Make horror, but horror with which we can cope.

I wish (if it could) to have a psi-defence (like ammo or dergadeable armor-like) that i could take with me in the operation or trainable base where i could train psi-defence (its as i see is working like fear - fear gets you out of your head, so to face it just courage needed or... drugs). If devs doesn't want to make psy-labs and train human psyhics (its a pity... copyiing alien techs our brains could make, but thigs like meditation and samadhi not?) than make an instrument to settle effect for less time. Than We could force a real threat of some alien psyihics not only siting in the ships ("see psyker - kill it" - is okay, but before it you must deal with field defece and than with interior defenders - so its doesn't work).

maybe psykers go out too?

A i see the conception - to sit in the crashed site and wait when somebdy come isn't good enough (no tactics, just meat-hunt, so scouts is more challengable than cruisers or corvets - they react and defend from the begin of assault and MOVE, but its a pity very less). When there are 2 or more leveled ships - interior defenders sit on the second stage!!! If you come in the cruiser wings - not the main dors - none comes at all, and they doesn't go there at all (if only there no way alse to come to the center place).

I think psykers MUST happen more time and differentised (psy-soldier, psy-officer ats in one company) and may be in the last stages - some like after battleships (if the drednought could be implemented) - there would be mix of alien races in?

p.s. 2 maradeurs and 1 foxtrout takes of battleship with no problem... unreal with that threat that it gives in the field.

Plus could the crew and the mup of the carrier be mucher? Its less than the map of big scout! (if the feelings of before inside ship storming).

Edited March 29, 2014 by Kirill Selivanov

[Troublechuter]

I think everything that needs to be said has been said. I don't think Dread is particularly overpowered, but the message spam is extremely annoying. Mind Control really needs to be line-of-sight only. Given that your soldiers regain all of their action points when MCed, it is a lot more powerful than it is in that other game, and should be balanced appropriately.

[zolobolo]

Reached the point where game cannot continue due to psi powers - my elite troops get wasted in 3 turns via mind-control and get dreaded spam.

Mind control needs to be toned down considerable and all above suggestions seem fine. Dread spam needs to be reduced so it does not become annoying so fast. Most annoying part is the lack of knowledge what the conditions and effects of these events are. It seems to me that all my soldiers get controlled without LOS with the newest build. So what I would like the most would be better overview and control over this layer like mentioned before:

1. Training of soldiers against these effects or building them an item against it.

2. Status portrait of soldier to show what effect is applied on him so the player can understand and learn the dynamics without reading the forum

Mind control is the single largest risk to game play since it seems to effect all my troops independent from rank, capabilities or location. EU also used this move bot only via LOS of the commander alien which seems reasonable and one of the better improvements over the original game.

Edited March 30, 2014 by zolobolo

[ROBERTREAD1]

I personally think mind control needs a long 5 turn cool-down.

Also HOW do you train bravery? Is there a building I missed, or is there a plan to add a counter-psi building?

[Skybirduk]

I'm surprised that there is no means of combating any psi attacks, as there must be some way of incorporating it into the game mechanics.

Maybe some kind of chemical that effects the human brain which has to be regularly taken during combat. Makes you resistant to Psi effects but negatively effects accuracy and TU's. Perhaps something as simple as alcohol. Could you imagine the Xenonauts going into battle swilling vodka and having to remember to take a drink after so many turns?

Or some kind of shield generator that covers so many squares that is very heavy so the trooper carrying it can carry little else.

Or Psi-grenades which generate some kind of special EMP field over the map, but it can only be used on turns after psi attacks can be made. It breaks all mind control and suppresses the alien for a random number of turns due to the intense pain. It would be be like shining an ultra-bright light into a man's eyes that wouldn't hurt a blind man. after the 'grenade' is activated it is used up, so you need a good supply.

[Troublechuter]

I'm surprised that there is no means of combating any psi attacks, as there must be some way of incorporating it into the game mechanics.

Maybe some kind of chemical that effects the human brain which has to be regularly taken during combat. Makes you resistant to Psi effects but negatively effects accuracy and TU's. Perhaps something as simple as alcohol. Could you imagine the Xenonauts going into battle swilling vodka and having to remember to take a drink after so many turns?

Or some kind of shield generator that covers so many squares that is very heavy so the trooper carrying it can carry little else.

Or Psi-grenades which generate some kind of special EMP field over the map, but it can only be used on turns after psi attacks can be made. It breaks all mind control and suppresses the alien for a random number of turns due to the intense pain. It would be be like shining an ultra-bright light into a man's eyes that wouldn't hurt a blind man. after the 'grenade' is activated it is used up, so you need a good supply.

I actually really like the idea of a portable "psi shield".

Reached the point where game cannot continue due to psi powers - my elite troops get wasted in 3 turns via mind-control and get dreaded spam.

Yeah, likewise. I've restarted this one alien base attack four times now, and literally every single time one of my guys has been MCed on the first turn. There's no tactics involved at all, no input from me that can affect the outcome, its literally just a "fuck you" beam that the AI can fire once per turn. All I can do is hope its one of my shield guys and not a heavy / rocketeer.

[frank_walls]

Just did my first base attack with the V22Ex and you guys are right. After the constant psi-attacks and the ridiculously hard terror missions I'm giving the game a break until the next update.

[varnav]

For me my troops look too defenseless against psi attacks. I think easiest solution is to integrate some psi protection levels into armors. Like special psi shields inside helmet.

[Skybirduk]

Like special psi shields inside helmet.

With the main material being aluminium...

[Max_Caine]

I carried out some tests. PsionicPower is supposed to be the stat which is used in calculating whether a psychic power is effective or not, but I don't think it's being used correctly. I looked at the PsionicPower stat, and though "hmm, what would happen if I dropped it from 120 to something lower?" (the average bravery of the troops I used in the test was 50). I dropped it to 70. Beserk still worked every time. Dropped it to 50. Beserk worked every time. Dropped it to 30. Beserk worked, every time. Dropped it to 5. Beserk worked, every time. Beserk, Fear - any psychic power seems currently to be set to auto-success. I think there's something wrong with the calculation for a psychic power to work.

[StellarRat]

I carried out some tests. PsionicPower is supposed to be the stat which is used in calculating whether a psychic power is effective or not, but I don't think it's being used correctly. I looked at the PsionicPower stat, and though "hmm, what would happen if I dropped it from 120 to something lower?" (the average bravery of the troops I used in the test was 50). I dropped it to 70. Beserk still worked every time. Dropped it to 50. Beserk worked every time. Dropped it to 30. Beserk worked, every time. Dropped it to 5. Beserk worked, every time. Beserk, Fear - any psychic power seems currently to be set to auto-success. I think there's something wrong with the calculation for a psychic power to work.

I believe Chris said it was set to max power in the code for testing and they forgot to set it back.

[Troublechuter]

Reducing the % chance that an attack will succeed would make things a little easier, but it still wouldn't make things any more fair. A "fuck you" beam that can MC any one of my soldiers at almost any time but has a 50% chance of failure would still be extremely irritating. It really just needs to be a LOS only power.

[Beltorn]

i'd prefer radius instead of LOS. Besides aliens do have psi-radar power. MC can have smaller radius than psi-radar.

Radius-based limitation would allow for such an alien to be effective without entering combat, but still close enough to be located and eliminated in a turn or 2.

[Xenomorph]

I believe Chris said it was set to max power in the code for testing and they forgot to set it back.

Ugh. Silly thing that put us players through some unnecessary grief.

[kabill]

Ugh. Silly thing that put us players through some unnecessary grief.

According to the change-log for 21 Stable, this should have been fixed already. (Assuming that this was all set via the psionic strength score of aliens, the game files would support this. It's possible it was set elsewhere, however, and not changed?)

[StellarRat]

According to the change-log for 21 Stable, this should have been fixed already. (Assuming that this was all set via the psionic strength score of aliens, the game files would support this. It's possible it was set elsewhere, however, and not changed?)

If that's the case someone ought to definitely say something to Chris before the hotfix goes out with a bug still in it.

[Mercent]

Maybe some kind of chemical that effects the human brain which has to be regularly taken during combat. Makes you resistant to Psi effects but negatively effects accuracy and TU's. Perhaps something as simple as alcohol. Could you imagine the Xenonauts going into battle swilling vodka and having to remember to take a drink after so many turns?

.

Ha! You must be thinking of Stalker!

[Minttunator]

My objections to Psi are twofold, First, there is no defense against it. Of course, in the OG you could train your soldiers to have some resistance to Psi, and even determine who were susceptable and who weren't; however, as near as I can tell, no amount of Bravery or Morale will keep a squad member from becoming an Enemy, which brings me to my second point. /---/

AND if I never see "PlayerX is filled with Dread" again, it will be way too soon. If you want to sap a third of my TU's just freakin' do it. /---/

In closing, I suggest you give me the chance to train my troops against Psi. Failing that, backing it off to LOS and a 20-ish tiles might work.

This is a very good post and pretty much exactly what I'm thinking! The Dread mechaninc is escpecially annoying as it:

1. punishes the player without the player actually making a mistake

2. is AFAIK impossible to defend against - i.e. there are no steps the player can take to prevent it

So in essence it's just a TU penalty that gets applied in missions where there are psi-capable enemies - which I could deal with were it not for the incredibly annoying "Soldier X is overcome with dread" messages for each and every one of my 10+ soldiers every single turn. I wouldn't lose any sleep if this mechanic was removed altogether - but if not, then there's got to be a way to consolidate these notifications.

Ideally I'd also like for a way to defend against psionic attacks - either through equipment or training. A LOS requirement seems like a good start, though. The Dread thing could also be scaled down a bit - it would be much less annoying if it hit maybe 2-3 dudes instead of 8-10.

[Xenomorph]

I can see that the only way to defend against PSI will be to edit files else i will NEVER EVER try insane+iroman. Just like i dont look down a shotgun barrel and pull the trigger.

[Chris]

I've created a new thread to discuss these issues in.