OP Reapers

[Minttunator]

Btw, Reapers shouldn't approach unless they are certain of an attack/kill.

Yeah, the Reapers I've met thus far have been pretty smart - i.e. they don't approach my guys unless they have enough TUs to attack them. This means that the only ways to kill them before getting zombiefied are to either snipe/rocket them from afar or save TUs and hope that the reaction fire of my soldiers kills the Reaper before he reaches us.

I'm not sure whether they'd work better if they were slower but more durable (like Chryssalids) - maybe not, I think this might actually be a good change. I do feel, though, that the zombification shouldn't work 100% every time, ignoring all armour. I don't recall how that worked in the original game, but I think Predator armour at the very least should take a couple of hits to penetrate.

[Xenomorph]

Rooftops have great views

Oh wait... OH NOES PLZ DONT MAKE THEM ABLE TO CLIMB PLZ!!!

[Amaror]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3167[/ATTACH]

My roommate decided to print them out.

Btw, Reapers shouldn't approach unless they are certain of an attack/kill.

The cover/hiding behavior should be easy to implement by adjusting the pathing weights.

*Edit: wrong thread*

Yay, i made the list. I feel so honored now :-)

Actually, I'm pretty sure wolves can know guns are dangerous (particularly if they've been trained). Just like dogs, they're very observant, and contrary to what you seem to think, animals can recognize objects. Have you never owned a cat or dog? My uncle owns a dog that yaps a lot, and they have a spray bottle they use to shut it up. You don't have to actually spray the dog, though--it shuts up as soon as you reach for the bottle. We could easily train an animal with the intelligence of a dog to attack a man carrying a rocket launcher before a man with a pistol, and staying out of sight until you are very close is the kind of good sense most predators exhibit.

The intelligence of the Reapers isn't a problem, because it's unrealistic or anything. It's a problem because it makes Reapers quite a bit too powerfull. The OG chrysallids weren't too powerfull, because they were retarded and easy to kill.

The only good way of opposing reapers right now is to wait with all your guys ready to do a reaction shot. And reaction shots are unreliable at best, while a reaper will 100% kill you if it gets to you.

[crusherven]

The intelligence of the Reapers isn't a problem, because it's unrealistic or anything. It's a problem because it makes Reapers quite a bit too powerfull. The OG chrysallids weren't too powerfull, because they were retarded and easy to kill.

The only good way of opposing reapers right now is to wait with all your guys ready to do a reaction shot. And reaction shots are unreliable at best, while a reaper will 100% kill you if it gets to you.

I brought realism up only because legit1337 thought to use it as an argument. My point is that *realistically* not only should Reapers act with intelligence in hiding and using cover, but also they should be able to target the most dangerous soldiers, first. Heck, *realistically* the other aliens should be able to give them attack or hold commands to use them in a coordinated attack. There's no realism argument to make Reapers dumber.

But I do agree that balance > realism.

[legit1337]

My roommate decided to print them out.

I am honored I made the wall too lol.

Actually, I'm pretty sure wolves can know guns are dangerous (particularly if they've been trained). Just like dogs, they're very observant, and contrary to what you seem to think, animals can recognize objects. Have you never owned a cat or dog? My uncle owns a dog that yaps a lot, and they have a spray bottle they use to shut it up. You don't have to actually spray the dog, though--it shuts up as soon as you reach for the bottle. We could easily train an animal with the intelligence of a dog to attack a man carrying a rocket launcher before a man with a pistol, and staying out of sight until you are very close is the kind of good sense most predators exhibit.

As someone who used to work around bomb sniffing dogs (and who lives with a dog) this is patently untrue.

Dogs can be pretty clever at times, but they might as well not have brains at all when it comes to abstract threat assessment. A dog will charge a man with a gun 10 times out of 10, and chances are won't even realize it is outmatched until it is already shot dead. A dog just doesn't have the intelligence to realize that a gun can hurt it before it actually GETS hurt.

This is different then trained behavior, because if you do something enough, the dog will eventually realize that if he does it again, he will face the consequences again. Shooting a dog that many times though (to teach it that guns are dangerous) would kill it before it learned its lesson.

I brought realism up only because legit1337 thought to use it as an argument. My point is that *realistically* not only should Reapers act with intelligence in hiding and using cover, but also they should be able to target the most dangerous soldiers, first. Heck, *realistically* the other aliens should be able to give them attack or hold commands to use them in a coordinated attack. There's no realism argument to make Reapers dumber.

But I do agree that balance > realism.

Hiding definitely. Many predators use ambush as a primary means of attack. But this behavior is instinctual and not borne out of any kind of intelligence.

Using cover, and selected targeting of opponents, no way. Not unless, as you said, there was an intelligence coordinating them and giving them commands.

This operating under the assumption that reapers are as intelligent as an average canine. Who knows, they may very well be smarter. But how much smarter? If they are smart enough to pick targets, use cover, and use tactics like flanking... why not give them plasma rifles and use them as soldiers instead of terror units? No need for sebs or caesans. Which was my original point, they HAVE to be dumber then that for the lore to make any sort of sense.

Edited April 2, 2014 by legit1337

[Skybirduk]

Oh wait... OH NOES PLZ DONT MAKE THEM ABLE TO CLIMB PLZ!!!

I doubt if they will climb, they'll probably be given the ability to jump instead...

[crusherven]

As someone who used to work around bomb sniffing dogs (and who lives with a dog) this is patently untrue.

Dogs can be pretty clever at times, but they might as well not have brains at all when it comes to abstract threat assessment. A dog will charge a man with a gun 10 times out of 10, and chances are won't even realize it is outmatched until it is already shot dead. A dog just doesn't have the intelligence to realize that a gun can hurt it before it actually GETS hurt.

This is different then trained behavior, because if you do something enough, the dog will eventually realize that if he does it again, he will face the consequences again. Shooting a dog that many times though (to teach it that guns are dangerous) would kill it before it learned its lesson.

I'm not sure if you didn't read what I said, or if you didn't think about it, but I specifically said "trained," and no, it's not hard to teach a dog that guns are dangerous. I know people who have done it on accident by using a BB gun to get them to shut up from the porch. As soon as she grabs the pellet gun those dogs find cover. There's nothing abstract about that kind of threat assessment. As for dogs charging a man with a gun, I think with our analogy the point is that the Reaper must eventually charge--but from an ambush position, not from an open field.

Hiding definitely. Many predators use ambush as a primary means of attack. But this behavior is instinctual and not borne out of any kind of intelligence.

It really doesn't matter why they do it for the purposes of this discussion--whether they instinctively prefer to stay hidden, or understand the danger of firearms, or are trained, the result is the same.

Using cover, and selected targeting of opponents, no way. Not unless, as you said, there was an intelligence coordinating them and giving them commands.

Not really that hard. As far as the player is concerned, using cover is the same as hiding, and any animal can figure that out. Training an animal to target a specific enemy based on some cue should not be hard for a skilled trainer, either.

This operating under the assumption that reapers are as intelligent as an average canine. Who knows, they may very well be smarter. But how much smarter? If they are smart enough to pick targets, use cover, and use tactics like flanking... why not give them plasma rifles and use them as soldiers instead of terror units? No need for sebs or caesans. Which was my original point, they HAVE to be dumber then that for the lore to make any sort of sense.

Eh, I haven't looked at them recently, but do they even have opposable thumbs? Do their eyes focus in the right way to use weapons accurately? Ability to use basic tactics (or what appears to be tactics based on instinct and training) does not equate to the ability to use firearms in any sense at all.

[StellarRat]

You guys do realize Chris increased there % TU to attack in the last build, right? That should cut down there "charge" range quite a bit.

[legit1337]

and no, it's not hard to teach a dog that guns are dangerous. I know people who have done it on accident by using a BB gun to get them to shut up from the porch. As soon as she grabs the pellet gun those dogs find cover. There's nothing abstract about that kind of threat assessment. As for dogs charging a man with a gun, I think with our analogy the point is that the Reaper must eventually charge--but from an ambush position, not from an open field.

I'm sorry, but that is a totally different scenario. Combat animals have an "attack mode" that they go into. Associating pain with guns through training isn't going to stop a charging dog given an attack command any more then a squirtbottle to the face would stop it even if it were trained to react to it. The difference is the dog associates "pain" with the sight of a gun... Pain is tolerable and may even make the animal fight harder. How do you associate the concept of "death" to the same thing? That is the only way I see an attack dog "taking cover" undirected in a combat situation.

Eh, I haven't looked at them recently, but do they even have opposable thumbs? Do their eyes focus in the right way to use weapons accurately? Ability to use basic tactics (or what appears to be tactics based on instinct and training) does not equate to the ability to use firearms in any sense at all.

Irrelevant. The aliens have the technology to design plasma weapons for any physiology. If a being is intelligent enough to understand target prioritization, basic military tactics, and self preservation, it is definitely intelligent enough to aim and pull a trigger.

[Skybirduk]

Irrelevant. The aliens have the technology to design plasma weapons for any physiology. If a being is intelligent enough to understand target prioritization, basic military tactics, and self preservation, it is definitely intelligent enough to aim and pull a trigger.

Surely the whole point of Reapers using Weapons is irrelevant as they are a weapon in their own right. Anyway, if they kill other people with weapons, that reduces the amount of hosts that they have available.

One reaper becomes two, then four, then eight, sixteen, thirty-two, sixty-four...

Any suggestions on how to multiply the alien weapon that it holds?

[thixotrop]

Reapers with guns....hmm

Cover of "Aliens Stronghold" TPB, Dark Horse

Relax it is no real Alien it is an android...

...ugh..horrifying idea spawns...Andron like a Reaper AND guns.

[crusherven]

I'm sorry, but that is a totally different scenario. Combat animals have an "attack mode" that they go into. Associating pain with guns through training isn't going to stop a charging dog given an attack command any more then a squirtbottle to the face would stop it even if it were trained to react to it. The difference is the dog associates "pain" with the sight of a gun... Pain is tolerable and may even make the animal fight harder. How do you associate the concept of "death" to the same thing? That is the only way I see an attack dog "taking cover" undirected in a combat situation.

Uh... "combat animals"? I'm not sure what you mean by that term. We haven't really used animals in actual combat since we stopped riding horses.

Irrelevant. The aliens have the technology to design plasma weapons for any physiology. If a being is intelligent enough to understand target prioritization, basic military tactics, and self preservation, it is definitely intelligent enough to aim and pull a trigger.

Nonsense. This is an arbitrary rule you invented yourself. The melee attack is deadly (arguably more dangerous than plasma weaponry when properly applied) and performs several secondary roles. The aliens don't need to give Reapers plasma weapons, particularly if their physiology is not well adapted to it. If their eyesight does not allow them to focus properly, if the weapons do not fit their bodies, if they don't have the mental bent for it, they could easily be less dangerous with plasma weapons.

Edited April 3, 2014 by crusherven

[legit1337]

Uh... "combat animals"? I'm not sure what you mean by that term. We haven't really used animals in actual combat since we stopped riding horses.

Wrong. Modern police and militaries use dogs quite often in combat situations.

My point was that it is impossible for an animal with a dog-like intelligence to "take cover" or use tactics like humans do out of a forewarned sense of self preservation IE: (That man has a gun, if I so much as even poke my snout out of this cover he will kill me). They simply aren't capable of such abstract thinking.

However, if the dog were injured by a gun, I could see him retreating and finding a place to hide because he now "feels" it and can associate the target as capable of injuring and killing him. But that is different then what we are talking about, which is taking cover and using tactics independently of commands and trained stimuli.

Surely the whole point of Reapers using Weapons is irrelevant as they are a weapon in their own right. Anyway, if they kill other people with weapons, that reduces the amount of hosts that they have available.

One reaper becomes two, then four, then eight, sixteen, thirty-two, sixty-four...

Any suggestions on how to multiply the alien weapon that it holds?

Nonsense. This is an arbitrary rule you invented yourself. The melee attack is deadly (arguably more dangerous than plasma weaponry when properly applied) and performs several secondary roles. The aliens don't need to give Reapers plasma weapons, particularly if their physiology is not well adapted to it. If their eyesight does not allow them to focus properly, if the weapons do not fit their bodies, if they don't have the mental bent for it, they could easily be less dangerous with plasma weapons.

Right. So the aliens with the technology to move faster than light, that have logistics of capable of mounting an invasion of an enemy PLANET light years away, that have psychokenetic, and telepathic powers, and that can manipulate gravity on a basic level, suddenly have trouble adapting an infantry weapon for quadruped use. LOL

Eyesight is irrelevant, there could be a targeting scanner wired directly into the creature's brain. We are talking about a technologies far beyond our own.

Think about it... an ultra fast, ultra strong, super-dangerous in close combat, reaper SOLDIER capable of tactics, target prioritization, and ranged combat via plasma weapons. Think of a xenomorph (from the aliens series) with a "predator" plasmacaster mounted on it's shoulder. Why oh why would the aliens want anything else?

The answer is they don't because the reaper isn't an intelligent creature capable of that kind of thinking. The reaper is simply the alien's version of an "attack dog", nothing more... It is the only solution that makes sense.

Edited April 4, 2014 by legit1337

[Skybirduk]

Think of a xenomorph (from the aliens series) with a "predator" plasmacaster mounted on it's shoulder. Why oh why would the aliens want anything else?

So, when the Reaper with the plasmacaster infects a human. The human then gives birth to a second reaper, which will be without a plasmacaster. The next two reapers will be born without any additional weapons, and so on.

Is the original Reaper going to carry a massive sack of plasma weapons on its back so that it can be divided amongst offspring? A great threat, moving at 4TU's because of the additional weight.

"See that Reaper with the massive sack? Just take your time shooting him, as he's going nowhere fast..."

[TacticalDragon]

So, when the Reaper with the plasmacaster infects a human. The human then gives birth to a second reaper, which will be without a plasmacaster. The next two reapers will be born without any additional weapons, and so on.

Is the original Reaper going to carry a massive sack of plasma weapons on its back so that it can be divided amongst offspring? A great threat, moving at 4TU's because of the additional weight.

"See that Reaper with the massive sack? Just take your time shooting him, as he's going nowhere fast..."

LOL! What if new spawn reapers dont have plasma?

I think that Devs on the attempt of recreating original UFO forget to give life and creativity to alien races.

Reaper is simply OP in terms of attack, but is not a real threat counting with current weapon damage.

[Skybirduk]

LOL! What if new spawn reapers dont have plasma?

That's what I'm trying to point out. The new reapers won't have weapons of their own. It seems a waste of time to modify the reapers to use a weapon, when they will only constitute a very small number of the total reapers in the end.

If you dropped a hundred reapers in a city, by the time the Xenonaut soldiers get there, it may be too late for the planet, let alone surviving the mission.

[legit1337]

That's what I'm trying to point out. The new reapers won't have weapons of their own. It seems a waste of time to modify the reapers to use a weapon, when they will only constitute a very small number of the total reapers in the end.

If you dropped a hundred reapers in a city, by the time the Xenonaut soldiers get there, it may be too late for the planet, let alone surviving the mission.

If they are intelligent enough to use military tactics, they are smart enough to "report" for cybernetic enhancement. Or if not, are hard-wired genetically by the praetors to return to base to be "enhanced".

Reapers HAVE to have animal-level intelligence. I'm sorry, but anything else just violates the logic of the in-game universe.

[dpelectric]

I really don't get it. Playing v20 and v21 I've prob killed fifty reapers altogether and none of them have gotten close to my troops. I'm certainly not a great player; the only thing I can figure is people are racing ahead on the maps and putting themselves in vulnerable situations. Careful positioning, some TUs saved, interlocking fields of fire. I actually have little respect for reapers; they seem to go down a lot easier than high-level androns and sebillians

[Skybirduk]

If they are intelligent enough to use military tactics, they are smart enough to "report" for cybernetic enhancement. Or if not, are hard-wired genetically by the praetors to return to base to be "enhanced".

Instead of turning maybe ten or more civilians into reapers, each new reaper goes back to the ship to have a weapon fitted. So, if they landed in a major city, the ship carrying a few reapers has to carry one hundred thousand weapons? Could you imagine a queue of a thousand reapers outside a small ship, waiting for their weapons?

You talk about logic, yet you completely ignore logistics.

[Amaror]

I really don't get it. Playing v20 and v21 I've prob killed fifty reapers altogether and none of them have gotten close to my troops. I'm certainly not a great player; the only thing I can figure is people are racing ahead on the maps and putting themselves in vulnerable situations. Careful positioning, some TUs saved, interlocking fields of fire. I actually have little respect for reapers; they seem to go down a lot easier than high-level androns and sebillians

I didn't had any problem with them on v20. on v21 stable they are more powerfull though. I think they were dumber in v20. I remember them often standing on open field without cover. Or they would charge your troops, even if they would have to TU left to attack. Since that's fixed they are MUCH more dangerous.

[Lidhuin]

Reapers with guns....hmm

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3179[/ATTACH]

Cover of "Aliens Stronghold" TPB, Dark Horse

Relax it is no real Alien it is an android...

...ugh..horrifying idea spawns...Andron like a Reaper AND guns.

So, the borg?

[dpelectric]

I didn't had any problem with them on v20. on v21 stable they are more powerfull though. I think they were dumber in v20. I remember them often standing on open field without cover. Or they would charge your troops, even if they would have to TU left to attack. Since that's fixed they are MUCH more dangerous.

Um, ok. Playing v21 stable, recently finished a seb base and a terror mission where I prob killed a dozen reapers combined. If anything- and people may think I'm nuts- I feel they're underpowered. The chrysallids in the new Firaxis games were the same way: target practice.

I feared the OG chrysallids, with their massive HP and movement range (I remember dropping TWO blaster missiles on one of them, and it was still standing there while the entire building it was in was destroyed) quite a bit more. When I saw one of them, it was "oh, sh*t". When I see a reaper, it definitely doesn't command the same respect, at least for me. Maybe I'll change my tune if one of them ever gets to actually attack my troops

Edited April 5, 2014 by dpelectric

[antisocialmunky]

Also they avoided crossing LoS unless they could get a kill. The fact that they would hide from a player and come out from somewhere that looked 'cleared' or nowhere at all was freaking terrifying.

[crusherven]

Wrong. Modern police and militaries use dogs quite often in combat situations.

Sigh... no, we don't, and you know we don't, so stop being disingenuous. We use dogs to sniff for bombs. We use them as sentries. We even use them to intimidate and guard prisoners. We don't train dogs to take part in actual combat.

Eyesight is irrelevant, there could be a targeting scanner wired directly into the creature's brain. We are talking about a technologies far beyond our own.

...

The answer is they don't because the reaper isn't an intelligent creature capable of that kind of thinking. The reaper is simply the alien's version of an "attack dog", nothing more... It is the only solution that makes sense.

By your own logic they should exclusively use robots, because they can do everything better. Also using your logic, Reapers can be remotely controlled by more intelligent creatures using psionics. Their technology is so good, if they want to find some way to make Reapers act tactically, they can. You're defeating your own argument. The only reason you think your solution is the only viable one is that you're not really thinking about it.

[Skybirduk]

Please don't discourage him, Crusherven. He is providing a lot of amusement at the moment.