Skitso's Xenonaut noob friends thoughts

[Skitso]

Last night I had an extended play (almost 6 hours) of Xenonauts with one of my totally Xenonauts-noob friend. He is an OG veteran and has also played Firaxis one. We played on normal difficulty. I tried not to help him directly and just observed his play and gave tips and game mechanic advices. Here's few of his thoughts/my observations of him playing the Xenonauts (my own thoughts are in brackets):

• He was positively surprised about the overall quality of the game and loved the "retro"aestethics.
  
• He was frustrsted for not beign able to tell the difference between light scout and scout at geoscape. Sending a lone foxtrot to a light scout he thought would be a scout was a bummer. (I've had the same problem. Is there a way of knowing this?)
  
• He was mostly dissappointed about the quality of the crash site CG levels. Said some of them seemed rushed. (farm tileset I think?)
  
• He was dissappointed to see the same CG map twice in succession. (it was because lightscout/scout variations of the same map)
  
• He was somewhat confused about the start of the game and felt the starting base location and what to build first wasn't communicated to him clearly enough.
  
• He LOVED the air combat. (I found it hilarious to see how pumped he was about it. Almost fell off the sofa. )
  
• He liked music and weapon sounds but didn't like soldier and alien sound effects. Especially human/civilian death sounds were (his words) "laughable". Also many actions, he felt, lacked sound altogether. Also, the loud "denied" buzz made him almost crap his pants. (we played in the living room with big screen and a home theater)
  
• He felt the AI was good but too passive and static. (THERE IS STILL THE PASSIVE AI BUG!!! AI still reserves TU's even when ending turn in xenonauts' FOV)
  
• He felt giving first-aid was badly communicated. The numbers shown beside healed were illogical and hard to interpret. (I agree!)
  
• In CG, seeing a target but not being able to shoot it was confusing.
  
• Being shot by alien that the same xenonauts can't shoot back caused confusion too. (Seems building and ufo corner visibility rules are different on xenonauts and aliens.)
  
• When he used all his smoke grenades, the grenade quick selection slot was left empty even he had other grenade types available. He was confused how to select a new one. (Reported this in the bug forums. When the grenade quick slot is empty, nothing tells the player what it is, it's just a black spot in the UI and you just need to know what it is.)
  
• He tried many times to select aiming from the TU reserve panel and felt it confusing. (I agree, TU reserving panel in the UI is confusing and even completely unnecessary after you implement the new walk path system that displays maximum movement with each aim levels. Should be removed altogether)
  
• AND THIS IS IMPORTANT: He felt in multiple occasions that aliens should have killed his xenonauts and assumed theres a bug. There were multiple situations where aliens in adjacent or very close tile gave multiple shots and bursts that all missed the target. (I AGREE, there's still something wrong here: If 4 sebillians, all within 4 tiles from a xenonaut at the door of the scout doesn't hit him once, there has to be something wrong. Even a newbie player felt and saw it! Does aliens get the bonus accuracy when close?) Many others in the forums here have reported the same behaviour: aliens seem to hit better from far away than up close...
  and lastly:
  
• He was going to purchase the game immediately!
  

Edited March 19, 2014 by Skitso

[DNK]

Agree, Disagree

• He was positively surprised about the overall quality of the game and loved the "retro"aestethics.
  
  
• He was mostly dissappointed about the quality of the crash site CG levels. Said some of them seemed rushed. (farm tileset I think?)
  
  
• He was somewhat confused about the start of the game and felt the starting base location and what to build first wasn't communicated to him clearly enough.
  
  
• Especially human/civilian death sounds were "laughable". Also many actions, he felt, lacked sound altogether.
  
  
• He felt the AI was good but too passive and static. (THERE IS STILL THE PASSIVE AI BUG!!! AI still reserves TU's even when ending turn in xenonauts' FOV)
  
  
• He felt giving first-aid was badly communicated. The numbers shown beside healed were illogical and hard to interpret. (I agree!)
  
  
• corner visibility rules
  

[TacticalDragon]

You make me LOL with this post. I agree in most of the points, especially with passive behavior and shot calculations.

[Monifix]

AND THIS IS IMPORTANT: He felt in multiple occasions that aliens should have killed his xenonauts and assumed theres a bug. There were multiple situations where aliens in adjacent or very close tile gave multiple shots and bursts that all missed the target. (I AGREE, there's still something wrong here: If 4 sebillians, all within 4 tiles from a xenonaut at the door of the scout doesn't hit him once, there has to be something wrong. Even a newbie player felt and saw it! Does the aliens get the bonus accuracy when close?) Many others in the forums here have reported the same behaviour: aliens seem to hit better from far away than up close...

This has been happening a lot to me as well, I just finished a ground mission where 4 aliens spent 5 turns all shooting at the same crouched civillian who was completely out in the open and despite all 4 aliens spending all of their time units blasting away at the civillian every turn they didn't hit once. Has to be the most extreme example of this that I've encountered.

It almost seems like there are "invincibility tiles" scattered about the map, where if a unit sits in that specific spot it can't be hit. I've had situations as well where multiple xenonauts missed all of their shots with 80-95% hit chances when trying to hit an alien just a few squares away, and i'm talking a lot of shots since i keep my men grouped still as the aliens don't have grenades yet. It just seems beyond the realm of RNG.

[Skitso]

Yeah, the problem has been in the game for ages. Hope GH finds the reason...

Edited March 19, 2014 by Skitso

[quiescat]

just a small one if you right click the grenade quick slot when it has nothing in it like that it lets you change whats shown as if it had another picture showing instead of a blank.

not really sure if i would call it a bug so much as a design choice. i would rather see a blank or a zero for out like the ammo quick slot.

[Skitso]

just a small one if you right click the grenade quick slot when it has nothing in it like that it lets you change whats shown as if it had another picture showing instead of a blank.

not really sure if i would call it a bug so much as a design choice. i would rather see a blank or a zero for out like the ammo quick slot.

I know, but look it from a noob player's view. I witnessed my friend being confused when the grenade quick slot became empty. The problem is that when it's empty, nothing tells the player what it is. It's just a black space in the UI and you just need to know what it is/does.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Skitso

[Skitso]

Agree, Disagree

He was somewhat confused about the start of the game and felt the starting base location and what to build first wasn't communicated to him clearly enough.

You disagree that the player is not given enough information on choosing a starting base location? How do you know all the funding information each nation gives when it's not told to player at that point?

[kabill]

[*]He was frustrsted for not beign able to tell the difference between light scout and scout at geoscape. Sending a lone foxtrot to a light scout he thought would be a scout was a bummer. (I've had the same problem. Is there a way of knowing this?)

You can tell from the speed at which the UFOs travel (Light Scout is ~1600km/h, while Scout is ~2000km/h, I think). But you'd not pick that up until you'd played for a while, and having a clear 'very small' UFO size might be quite useful.

[*]He felt the AI was good but too passive and static. (THERE IS STILL THE PASSIVE AI BUG!!! AI still reserves TU's even when ending turn in xenonauts' FOV)

I've not played a lot of the Stable Candidate build, but I noticed this too. It seems GH have resolved the TU bug which was related to this, but the AI itself is the same.

From testing, it feels like AI units have a kind of 'patrol' move which they take when they can't see a player unit (a short 4-5 tile move). But when they encounter a player unit after taking this move they seldom react to the fact. Sometimes they do: in the previous build I've seen aliens sometimes move into my LoS and then shoot, and sometimes move into my LoS and retreat back into FoW. But overwhelmingly, they end their 'patrol' move and do nothing else.

(You might have been refering to some other element of passivity, of course, but this is where I've noticed it.)

[quiescat]

I know, but look it from a noob player's view. I witnessed my friend being confused when the grenade quick slot became empty. The problem is that when it's empty, nothing tells the player what it is. It's just a black space in the UI and you just need to know what it is/does.

you have a point, if it did the exact same thing as the quick slot for ammo. that one just shows a red zero with the ammo icon, or in this case it could a grenade with a red zero. i dont know what is there to say your able to change any of the pictures out side of the fact that basically the entire ui is clickable.

side note if you don't have a gun equipped i think the ammo box turns black as well.

this might be splinting hairs on the starting base location deal but your opening briefing is along the lines of hey you go save the world. then we plop you into a map of said world and give you the build a base icon with a big circle around it. admittedly i am not sure your told hey your going to have fighter jets at any time, but i would hope you got the broad strokes of the game before you bought it. i am not going to call that a perfect system. i think however at very least on normal or easy, you have the latitude to still beat the game even if you go and plant your first base any where short of one of the tiny islands. even then what would the funding information tell a player that new, other then hey money you don't know how to spend. at some point i think sink or swim wins out over the text book needed to convey the information to start min/maxing your first go around.

the unwritten game manual might fix all of this.

[Skitso]

You can tell from the speed at which the UFOs travel (Light Scout is ~1600km/h, while Scout is ~2000km/h, I think). But you'd not pick that up until you'd played for a while, and having a clear 'very small' UFO size might be quite useful.

That is true actually! Would like to have the 'very small' still though.

I've not played a lot of the Stable Candidate build, but I noticed this too. It seems GH have resolved the TU bug which was related to this, but the AI itself is the same.

Yeah, all the AI bugs have a huge impact on general fun that can be had with the game. Hopefully GH can fix this soon.

From testing, it feels like AI units have a kind of 'patrol' move which they take when they can't see a player unit (a short 4-5 tile move). But when they encounter a player unit after taking this move they seldom react to the fact. Sometimes they do: in the previous build I've seen aliens sometimes move into my LoS and then shoot, and sometimes move into my LoS and retreat back into FoW. But overwhelmingly, they end their 'patrol' move and do nothing else.

(You might have been refering to some other element of passivity, of course, but this is where I've noticed it.)

No, that's exactly what I've been noticing.

[Max_Caine]

There is a "very small" UFO icon, but that's currently used only for interceptors. Skitso, do you think your friend be confused if the fighter icon was used?

[Skitso]

Probably not, but if the interception dialog's size intel could say "very small" instead of "small" like with scout, it would be even clearer. And this isn't just for noobs. I would also like to have it like that.

[StellarRat]

I do believe Chris said that new unique icons for the different ship types are coming soon. As far as the point blank shooting for aliens: I don't know if they receive the close in bonus, they should. I don't generally let them get that close to my guys though, LOL.

As far as the AI goes: I consider it to be far more competent then the OG. In the OG aliens would frequency run/stand completely out in the open and had little awareness of taking cover. You also had the "last alien hiding" to deal with. I hated that. Although, that was more of a game mechanic than the AI, strictly speaking. I don't necessarily think the AI is too passive. I'm trying to figure exactly what you expect it to do to be "better" without being stupid? If you're engaged with the enemy and you don't reserve TU on at least some of your guys you run the risk of a "grenade charge". It's probably more a function of how the AI manages/doesn't manage group tactics. A human might expend ALL the TUs he has for most of his troops to fire at the enemy because he knows that other troops can cover the guys that are shooting. He also know how many of the aliens are suppressed. I frequently use about 2/3 of my guys to shoot and save about 1/3 to take care of surprises. I don't think the AI deals the situation on a group level like a human can. Also, a human can assess the risk of whether or not there is a chance of surprise far better than the AI. A human knows much of the map has been cleared, what danger zones remain, etc... I doubt the AI can do this.

Edited March 19, 2014 by StellarRat

[Gauddlike]

this might be splinting hairs on the starting base location deal but your opening briefing is along the lines of hey you go save the world. then we plop you into a map of said world and give you the build a base icon with a big circle around it. admittedly i am not sure your told hey your going to have fighter jets at any time, but i would hope you got the broad strokes of the game before you bought it.

This might be enough if all nations funding was identical or clearly known and their borders were clearly identified.

[thixotrop]

I know, but look it from a noob player's view. I witnessed my friend being confused when the grenade quick slot became empty. The problem is that when it's empty, nothing tells the player what it is. It's just a black space in the UI and you just need to know what it is/does.

Maybe the blank slots (Are they still black? My last game was with V20 only) could have a grey icon if the slot is really empty.

Something like this:

This can be made for the other slots as well.

On second thought, maybe once the "chosen" grenade type is depleted the next grenade type should appear in the slot before the "empty background" should be seen.

[Skitso]

I'm trying to figure exactly what you expect it to do to be "better" without being stupid? If you're engaged with the enemy and you don't reserve TU on at least some of your guys you run the risk of a "grenade charge".

AI should never move it's units in Xenonauts' FoV and reserve its TU's for reaction. At the moment it often feels its all they are capable.

On second thought' date=' maybe once the "chosen" grenade type is depleted the next grenade type should appear in the slot before the "empty background" should be seen.[/quote']

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Skitso

[StellarRat]

AI should never move it's units in Xenonauts' FoV and reserve its TU's for reaction. At the moment it often feels its all they are capable.

I think it's just covering it's bases in case the Xenonauts charge. As far as never moving while it's in a firefight, well, it adjusts it's positions when it feels another spot provides better cover. Perhaps Gijs-Jan should set a "factor" for danger of moving vs. not moving that is the related to the presence of known enemy units? In other words, they would be less likely to change positions if they have spotted Xenonauts within a certain range? The AI probably doesn't calculate loss of firepower due to TU's spent to move right now. If it's within effective range of known targets it ought increase the amount of TUs it dedicates to shooting OR increase the "good" weight of it's current position making other positions iess desirable to move to.

This might be worthwhile to discuss in it's own thread. Maybe Gijs-Jan will comment on it. It could be a bug, but to me it seems more like intended behavior.

Edited March 20, 2014 by StellarRat

[kabill]

I think it's just covering it's bases in case the Xenonauts charge.

But this isn't especially good behaviour. (Indeed, I thought you'd said yourself elsewhere that it's better to shoot first.) Reserving TUs to stop a 'charge' would only be helpful if all possible targets are in cover (since, in theory, the AI might getter a better reaction shot than it has in its own turn). But it's incredibly easy to cancel the AI's reaction fire chances by suppressing them, and even if you don't manage to suppress them you can easily call the AI's reaction fire using soldiers in cover first. Either way, there's no benefit.

This isn't to say that there might not be circumstances where saving TUs is useful, but overwhelmingly if you can take shots on your turn its better to do so.

[StellarRat]

But this isn't especially good behaviour.

I agree on a per alien basis it's not very good. The aliens close to the enemy should fire for all they're worth and let another group cover them from behind or off to the sides. That's why I mentioned that alien is trying make up for a lack of organized tactics. However, if the aliens never reserved TU for reaction fire the human could easily take advantage of this by having a couple of troops with grenades or shotgun lurking out of sight then charging into the room or ship and wiping out the hapless aliens that now have no hope of defending themselves. It would make clearing UFOs trival. Perhaps the easiest way to partly fix the problem is to randomly have some aliens reserve TU and some not. Maybe 50/50. At least then the human wouldn't know for sure if it was safe to charge into the open unless he was very observant. The best solution is for the aliens to assume positions that allow for overwatch by some of them like real soldiers do.

[DNK]

It almost seems like there are "invincibility tiles" scattered about the map, where if a unit sits in that specific spot it can't be hit. I've had situations as well where multiple xenonauts missed all of their shots with 80-95% hit chances when trying to hit an alien just a few squares away, and i'm talking a lot of shots since i keep my men grouped still as the aliens don't have grenades yet. It just seems beyond the realm of RNG.

I also have noticed this, where I get repeated hits against an alien that just do nothing, not even getting hit like 8 times by a LMG-variant do it, plus a sniper shot, plus 3 or so others. Only grenades.

[Skitso]

I think it's just covering it's bases in case the Xenonauts charge. As far as never moving while it's in a firefight, well, it adjusts it's positions when it feels another spot provides better cover. Perhaps Jjis-Jan should set a "factor" for danger of moving vs. not moving that is the related to the presence of known enemy units? In other words, they would be less likely to change positions if they have spotted Xenonauts within a certain range? The AI probably doesn't calculate loss of firepower due to TU's spent to move right now. If it's within effective range of known targets it ought increase the amount of TUs it dedicates to shooting OR increase the "good" weight of it's current position making other positions iess desirable to move to.

No no, you miss understood me. Of course AI can move while in Xenonauts' FoV. I meant if they move aggressively to relatively close and after that still COULD shoot, they always absolutely should, instead of reserving those TU's for reaction fire. What's the point in reserving for reaction when you could shoot right away, especially if neither is in cover? Just to give your enemy a chance to shoot first?

I've had multiple occasions where an alien moves few tiles so that it stands a tile or two away from my unit and just ends it's turn there, reserving rest of it's TU's for reaction fire it'll never get 'cos I'll easily shoot it to swiss cheese on my turn.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Skitso

[Chris]

Thanks for posting this, these sorts of tests are very useful. I'll read it properly later, but I think GJ has put in some changes to the AI that might affect the TU reservation behaviours in the next build.

For the all miss bursts, I'm not entirely convinced there's anything wrong still. I suggest you play with the debugger on in the background and check the random rolls when you get a string of misses - burst fire is quite low accuracy now and sometimes you just roll a lot of misses. We rolled 7 misses in a row in the office last week on a 30% hit chance shot, but the calculation seemed to be working fine, we were just unlucky.

[Gauddlike]

if they move and after that still COULD shoot, they always absolutely should, instead of reserving those TU's for reaction fire. What's the point in reserving for reaction when you could shoot right away? Just to give your enemy a chance to shoot first?

Maybe the alien is not wasting its fire against a unit in cover that it has little chance of damaging and instead hoping you move out of cover in its turn for an easier shot?

If it feels it is in a safe spot then reserving TU until you move could be a viable tactic, although not very interesting for the player.

Blasting away is not always the best option so forcing them to fire just because they can may weaken them.

Linking it to the AI aggression setting seems to make sense though.

Aggressive aliens could always try to fire and only reserve if the accuracy is very poor while defensive aliens will prioritise cover and have a greater chance of reserving TU.

[Gijs-Jan]

Last weekend a set of fixes for the AI went in which should deal with the following:

- Better team coordination; help when under fire, etc.

- Better positioning; a bug in the pathfinding which excluded the target the AI was moving to which led to a host of issues actually.

- Aggressiveness; in approach and support. This is a bit experimental as I'll probably still have to tweak the values per race as to not make them all too aggressive.

- TU reservement; a bug in TU calculation needed to take a shot; which resulted in AI making plans where it would have exactly enough TU, then think it couldn't complete its last action.

- Better AI turn times; if AI is guaranteed to be out of sight, a lot of things will not animate anymore which decreased turn times dramastically.