V21 Ex4 Balance Requests

[legit1337]

@chris

Yes, we want the alien species to BEHAVE differently, and have different stats (strengths/weaknesses). We want them to have a somewhat standard loadout though. It both makes sense from a lore perspective and makes balancing easier.

[Chris]

Come on, if all the aliens had similar loadouts - i.e. plasma rifles, there'd be minimal behavioural differentiation except Sebillians might stand marginally closer than Caesans. Why is it a bad thing if Sebillians have specialist close combat weapons that, say, Caesans and Harridans don't have (and the converse)?

[legit1337]

@chris

When I meant "standard loadout" I didn't mean arming all of them with plasma rifles. Obviously there are specialists in every army.

But these specialists should be divided into "classes" that are balanced with each other.

Loadouts shouldn't be so random that you get 1 seb with 10 plasma grenades and a heavy plasma rifle, and the other 7 with plasma pistols. Or wonky rifles that differ in stats between each other. A seb rifle should be the same as a caesan rifle.

Edited February 12, 2014 by legit1337

[TrashMan]

The Xenonauts are only made up of one species, though. Most people want the alien races to behave differently and pose unique challenges, rather than become a homogenous mass that all use the same equipment and have the same abilities.

I don't recall ever saying that aliens races should be the same.

Their abilities and stats and preferred weapons is what would differentiate them (possibly also the AI).

What exactly does Cesian having a plasma rifle Mk1 and Sebilians having a plasma rifle Mk2 add? Especially given that Sebillaiss already have a prefference for different weapons (the alien shotgun and heavy plasma) and have regeneration.

[legit1337]

I don't recall ever saying that aliens races should be the same.

Their abilities and stats and preferred weapons is what would differentiate them (possibly also the AI).

What exactly does Cesian having a plasma rifle Mk1 and Sebilians having a plasma rifle Mk2 add? Especially given that Sebillaiss already have a prefference for different weapons (the alien shotgun and heavy plasma) and have regeneration.

^this

[Max_Caine]

The abilities and stats of aliens don't necessarily makes them different. Take spacemonger's experience of the game:

Aliens seem to one-shot my guys way to often. I can say that when some of the green reptilian type aliens shoot it almost always hit me and almost always kill my guy, even at above medium distances. Often my guys is behind some kind of cover, like hidden halfway behind a corner, the alien just shoots once and hits and soldier dies. I guess that if one of my guys were in the aliens position their hit chance with a standard assault rifle would maybe something like 17% aimed or something or less. I think I have noticed that this high accuracy happens much more with the reptilian types of aliens, than with the small grey aliens.

I think I selected the default(normal?) difficulty and I am about 2-3 weeks into the game. I found out it was the reptilian Sebilians which I read in the xenopedia should have poor accuracy at anything but small distance due to their small brain. I think I have met both those with plasma rifles and pistols, but haven't been able to notice a difference, probably because I need to play more. Compared to how much my own troops miss even at 30-60% hit chance I feel that these Sebilians hit much more accurate even at above medium range, but maybe I could have been unlucky. I will play more

On paper, Caesans have a higher accuracy than Sebillians do. A Caesan guard has an accuracy of 70 as opposed to a Sebbie accuracy of 60, which with a plasma rifle translates into a 60% (unmodified) to hit verses a 51% (unmodified) to-hit. Statistically, Caesans should have been hitting spacemonger's troops more regularly than Sebbies were, but they weren't. From spacemongers POV, Sebbies were more accurate.

We can't click on an alien and look at an aliens' stats, so our only way of experiencing an alien is by the feedback mechanisms available. The primary means of feedback is what we see the alien do. spacemonger saw Sebbies as more accurate than Caesans, which shouldn't true. spacemonger saw Sebbies as more accurate than his own troops which again, on paper, shouldn't be true but it was.

So much for stats. Now for abilities. What's the primary ability of a Sebbie? Regeneration. What doesn't work when you kill a Sebbie? Regeneration. Am I likely to shoot a Sebbie once or am I more likely to bury it with bullets until it's dead, because it's armed with a deadly plasma rifle? It wasn't until this current build that you'd even know that a Sebbie could regenerate, because there wasn't any feedback mechanism to suggest they could. Caesans are psychic, but you wouldn't know that until Psions appear in Corvettes. Caesans, Sebbies and Androns are horribly samey, even though their stats and abilities would suggest they are different.

[Gauddlike]

I don't recall ever saying that aliens races should be the same.

Their abilities and stats and preferred weapons is what would differentiate them (possibly also the AI).

What exactly does Cesian having a plasma rifle Mk1 and Sebilians having a plasma rifle Mk2 add? Especially given that Sebillaiss already have a prefference for different weapons (the alien shotgun and heavy plasma) and have regeneration.

It adds differentiation in the same way that you being able to equip your tough assault troops with a different weapon to your high accuracy support troops does.

As you say their preferred weapons should help to differentiate them but unlike your own troops they don't have a wide selection of weapons to choose from.

The extra weapon Chris is adding should help enormously with this as it increases the available options.

If that weapon was not to be added then giving each race a variation of the basic plasma rifle would have achieved the same thing.

Early game Sebillians would have used a weapon more like an smg while Ceasans had a weapon that was more like an assault/battle rifle.

It was a work around to avoid having to push for more sprites to be added to allow more different weapon types.

Hopefully adding a new weapon type to the mix will allow more racial variation at all stages as the weapons don't need to be as widely spaced to take into account Xenonaut armour increases.

Generally the racial variation in weapon types is only apparent later in the game, the plasma rifle variation suggestion was to address the early game similarities without adding additional sprites.

As additional sprites are planned anyway then it hopefully won't be required.

*edit* As Max points out there is not much noticeable differentiation beyond the aesthetics of the sprites.

Early game the Sebilians and Ceasans have almost identical equipment, late game they spread out but the Sebillians and Androns then have similar equipment instead.

All I know is that more guns are better.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Gauddlike

[Chris]

So Xenonauts use armor - aliens use armor.

Xenonauts use the same weapon - aliens use the same weapon.

That's what you said that was unclear in meaning. But yes, if you're arguing against the same weapon having different stats when used by different alien races, don't worry. We will not be doing that.

[Gauddlike]

To be fair my original suggestion wasn't very clearly written but what I was actually going for was different racial weapons that just happen to share a ground combat sprite as adding new ones from scratch is expensive and unlikely to happen.

I am happy enough with a completely new weapon type using existing (but so far unused) assets though.

[legit1337]

Why does a caesan guard have an accuracy of 70? It's just a caesan civilian armed with a plasma rifle and some armor... That is way too high considering that the highest I can get on a new recruit is 60, and those guys are supposedly elite snipers in their former service.

Caesan guards and non-coms should have an accuracy of 50. Sebs of the same rank should be 30-40.

Once the actual millitary aliens start appearing you can make them more accurate. But a ninja-sniper accuracy of 70 is way too high for a "guard".

Edited February 12, 2014 by legit1337

[StellarRat]

Why does a caesan guard have an accuracy of 70? It's just a caesan civilian armed with a plasma rifle and some armor... That is way too high considering that the highest I can get on a new recruit is 60, and those guys are supposedly elite snipers in their former service.

Caesan guards and non-coms should have an accuracy of 50. Sebs of the same rank should be 30-40.

Once the actual millitary aliens start appearing you can make them more accurate. But a ninja-sniper accuracy of 70 is way too high for a "guard".

Are you sure the term "guard" as you're interpreting it is the same as how GH interprets it? Pretorian Guards were the elite of Roman soldiers and guard units in the Soviet Army were like the SS in the German Army. I always thought of alien guards as more elite troops. Not mall cops.

[Max_Caine]

I've gotten 70 on new recruits... if I could loan them out I would. Anyway, in the strict order of all things Xeno guard-class aliens are lowest troopers on the totem pole, ashigaru to the solider-class's samurai. They don't get the cool stuff (guards aren't trusted with grenades), they do get rifles and they're sometimes trusted with the heavier stuff, but they never get things like cannons. That's entrusted to the upper echelons - Warriors and above. Guards are troopers, even if they aren't armed as their more warlike bretheren are, but I'd personally put them on the level of conscript, rather than professional volunteer.

EDIT: And remember that Caesans are bred to order. Each caste is bred for specific roles, so it's not a case of getting a non-com and giving it a rifle. Guards are born, rather than made.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Max_Caine

[ventuswings]

And it's not like aliens are being crazy snipers either. After all, aliens do miss to such an extent that people had to question whether their close range modifier were properly working. The guards do sometimes pull accurate shots out of nowhere from long range, but so can you.

Edit: If overall accuracy is too high on both sides, that's argument for either tweaking the accuracy formula or reducing Guard accuracy and max stat roll of new conscript down to 60 ~ 65.

Edited February 13, 2014 by ventuswings

[legit1337]

I always thought of guards as conscripts as well. Alien civilians given no formal military training, but given military equipment to combat the increasing xenonaut attacks on alien war assets.

Glorified mall cops/security guards if you will. Perhaps analogous to modern day MPs... But even MPs are trained so that may be going a bit far.

They are the second lowest rank of alien for a reason and 70 accuracy is too high imo when my best sniper has an accuracy of 68, and that was after 4-5 battles.

People have been complaining that the aliens are making crazy shots... this is probably why!

Edited February 14, 2014 by legit1337

[ventuswings]

By the way, when speaking of 70 accuracy, which difficulty are we talking about? If it's Veteran, I think it is fine but I guess for Normal decrease to about 65 is more agreeable.

Edit: One thing to note is that even at current state it's not difficult to keep the casualty late low (not none). I honestly believe casualty rate of one to two is perfect place to be for normal mission, especially with random stat roster and permanent items.

Also, aliens do not have grenades and shield that decisively negate whatever little stat advantage they possess.

Edited February 15, 2014 by ventuswings

[KateMicucci]

Lasers are expensive. $20,000 and 2 alloys for a pistol, to $80,000 and 8 alloys (and 60 man days!) for a precision rifle.

They aren't even much better than ballistics right now. They could cost half as much and take half as long to build and still not have as much battlefield impact per dollar as a scout car or suit of armor.

[Commissar Pancakes]

They do have the added benefit of universal ammunition however. Quite handy for when your Assault shield/Stun stick/Pistol solder can pass over spare ammo to the Support gunner.

[legit1337]

By the way, when speaking of 70 accuracy, which difficulty are we talking about? If it's Veteran, I think it is fine but I guess for Normal decrease to about 65 is more agreeable.

Edit: One thing to note is that even at current state it's not difficult to keep the casualty late low (not none). I honestly believe casualty rate of one to two is perfect place to be for normal mission, especially with random stat roster and permanent items.

According to Chris, Veteran is now the "normal" difficulty. I still think 70 accuracy is ridiculously high for the second lowest rank of alien, when my soldiers have trouble even getting to that number after many many battles.

Especially since "Elite" rank aliens should have somewhere in the ballpark of 85-90 accuracy.

Edited February 14, 2014 by legit1337

[Skitso]

They do have the added benefit of universal ammunition however. Quite handy for when your Assault shield/Stun stick/Pistol solder can pass over spare ammo to the Support gunner.

BTW, passing items to characters in adjacent tiles should be made possible somehow... It's kinda stupid to throw everything to ground.

[Trance]

I dont know if this has been discussed ... but, i'd point out something funny that has popped in my game just a couple mins ago:

Just to clarify, these guys are all battleships, aren't they .... a bit too much ................. ? considering the upkeep costs of those damn aircrafts i got, the funding i receive (wich is WAAAY too unbalanced getting something 60 dollars each month and spend 3 millions on manteinance cost) i barely have the aircrafts i need to shoot down a couple of these x base, anyone else noticed this ?

[Ol' Stinky]

I dont know if this has been discussed ... but, i'd point out something funny that has popped in my game just a couple mins ago:

Just to clarify, these guys are all battleships, aren't they .... a bit too much ................. ? considering the upkeep costs of those damn aircrafts i got, the funding i receive (wich is WAAAY too unbalanced getting something 60 dollars each month and spend 3 millions on manteinance cost) i barely have the aircrafts i need to shoot down a couple of these x base, anyone else noticed this ?

You're not meant to repel the alien invasion forever, so I guess my question to you is: do you think it's unreasonable to have done the final mission by April?

[KateMicucci]

do you think it's unreasonable to have done the final mission by April?

Yeah. Alien progression is a little too fast after the first medium shows up. Suddenly there's a huge list of new research topics, and you need to pick the "right" ones in order to stay in the game. A player should be able to research most or all of the techs in the game before it ends, right?

[Ol' Stinky]

Sure, it shouldn't be a guessing game. I haven't been past Jan for a good long while, so I'm out of touch.

[Chris]

The aliens have a 0.9 accuracy modifier at the moment, remember. So 70 accuracy is actually 63 and so on. Also, alien accuracy doesn't currently scale with difficulty settings.

[Abbo]

Im in medium difficulty quite late in the campaign i don't find the ground combat fun anymore due to plasma cannon spam, cover does not matter anymore as it is wiped out by one shot that can miss by 2 or 3 tiles from somewhere across the map. Then there is the stun and suppressing aoe value of the weapon. I don't mind seeing some enemies using it in a andron terror mission but about half of them using it is getting tedious. Did i mention how much i love seeing enemies shoot it twice in one round?