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Ground Combat Balance Discussion - V21 Experimental Balance Patch!


Chris

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More of a visual thing than balance, but anyways:

I started a new game with veteran difficulty for the first time and noticed the terrible lack of visual "ooomph" in the bullet impacts as the damage numbers were disabled. Playing without sound made the problem even worse. I really think GH should add some small blood splatter particles when units are hit. They could also vary in size depending how much damage was made.

This could also help in the other problem discussed in an other thread on how to distinguish hits stopped by armor vs hits that damage health. Either show blood splatter particles (damage caused) or don't (armor stopped)

Edited by Skitso
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More of a visual thing than balance, but anyways:

I started a new game with veteran difficulty for the first time and noticed the terrible lack of visual "ooomph" in the bullet impacts as the damage numbers were disabled. Playing without sound made the problem even worse. I really think GH should add some small blood splatter particles when units are hit. They could also vary in size depending how much damage was made.

This could also help in the other problem discussed in an other thread on how to distinguish hits stopped by armor vs hits that damage health. Either show blood splatter particles (damage caused) or don't (armor stopped)

I agree with all of this, although maybe hitting armour could show sparks or something instead of nothing at all. And hitting a prop would show a bit of dust, like a smaller version of the nice prop destruction effect? So that you know for sure you hit the floor/prop and not the alien. Maybe the flinching animations should be slowed down a tad as well.

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The rifle/sniper balance seems off again to me. I don't really take along rifles. I bring along an LMG for the wider suppression (4 tiles' worth), and the rest are snipers with shotguns in the bag, except for mules and shield guy. Rifles did have a niche before experimental in that they had decently accurate shots and were more mobile. Snipers had to cough up 50/60 APs for normal/aimed to an assault rifle's 30/40 - ouch! A knock-off effect of cover being reduced and AP costs for guns is that it's screwed up this balance. There's a whole bunch of stuff to mess with; I don't think all of these are needed, I'm just posting ideas.

Swap assault and sniper rifles' damage around.

Snipers do loads more damage than assaults. This is partly because of the buffs they recieved when hypervelocity was removed, and partly to reward a player who managed to get a sniper into the right place for the shot. Neither of those are really factors anymore. Snipers currently do 50 damage to the assaults' 30, and snipers also don't have to worry about armour (not that armour's used much right now). Change rifles to have a shorter range so that snipers don't become obsolete. Instead, snipers become safe and steady damage, but at the cost of raw stopping power. Assaults become strong, but they have to be in (or nearly in) sight to get used.

Increase the heavy weapons' accuracy penalty for moving.

It's 50% at the moment, which doesn't generally stop me from sniping on the move. Obviously it's better to not do this, but I still get a good hit % popping around a corner to shoot. The downside to this is that LMGs also get hit by the nerf. They could be compensated by getting higher accuracy, I guess?

Buff assaults' burst fire.

It costs 40 APs and is only for suppression. Snipers cause as much suppression over the same radius without sacrificing killing power, regardless of shot. If you want a good chunk of suppression, a snipers' snap shot is currently the best option, and that seems odd. LMGs cost 35 APs to fire and while they cause the same amount of suppression as assault burst and sniper single shots, they have a bit of a wider radius.

I don't mind whether assault burst becomes better at suppression or killing, but right now it's the poor choice for either.

Give assaults a higher reaction mod.

Right now snipers, assaults and LMGs all have a reaction mod of x1. Maybe there's a niche to be had in long range reaction fire. I can't deny that this is the weakest of my suggestions, but maybe someone can build on it a bit.

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Agree that assault rifles feel underpowered right now when compared to sniper rifles. The problem stems from the fact that using the sniper rifle doesn't feel like using a "heavy" weapon. IE: I don't feel the need to move carefully with them, line up a shot, and not move on the turn I take the shot. They just feel like better, single shot versions of assault rifles.

Also, assault rifle's burst function is absolutely useless outside of hitting a target at under 4 tiles, making a lot of noise and wasting ammo. It isn't even really good for supression really as a sniper/machinegunner does it way more consistently and accurately.

IMO the way to balance assault rifles is not to buff their overall damage or stats, but make burst fire a fairly accurate and deadly at close/mid range. If an alien is fairly close a player SHOULD pick burst fire over single shot for KILLING. Not only for the reason that it SHOULD be deadlier, but it SHOULD also cause pretty significant suppression.

A sniper rifle is always going to be better then an assault rifle at long range. But by buffing burst mode you not only fix something that is pretty useless, but you also restore the balance between the two weapons.

For example: An assault rifle is decent at range on single shot, but lacks the killing power and accuracy of the sniper rifle. Likewise at close and medium range an assault rifle is superior because of the amount of lead it can put down range fairly accurately ("assault" rifle's purpose IRL lol) which simply outshines the sniper rifle's damage and suppression outputs at that range with relation to TU cost.

TLDR: Buff burst mode on assault rifles to make them better at close/mid range combat and people will take them over sniper rifles again for the majority of situations. It makes sense when you compare the weapons IRL.

Edited by legit1337
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legit1337

Good idea, I think this is the best way to go in addition to increasing the heavy weapon penalty.

Though to be fair, I still use assault rifles. They might not be as good as snipers when you break it down but they're not bad and also I try not to minmax too much (but yeah, I never burst fire except at point blank). Also I if you shoot around corners a lot then the assault rifle has a better average damage output, but I didn't do the math on that.

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So what's the deal with Predator armor and grenades? Xenopedia says they you can't use them and you can't equip them but you can throw them with the grenade button. As it stands I use my predator guys more then anythings as turbo-granadiers. They have a near infinite supply, they can throw with great range and accuracy due to max strength and they can safely close the distance. Really it's a bit silly.

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I think the assault rifles are fine. The main problem with comparing them to the heavy weapons is that the heavy weapons are too easy to setup, move and use. I don't think there is a solution for that either. We've been down this road more than once during the game development. Realistically, the heavy weapons should in some cases take two people to operate correctly and more than one round to setup. The sniper rifles in particular have MANY parameters that could/should be considered but aren't in the game. Like limited field of view and slow reaction times to name a couple. A sniper really can't adequately cover a 360 degree circle like they can in game. For reaction fire the target would probably have to pop up right in the scope arc and that's a lot narrower than what a rifleman using open sights can see. It's a tough one given the current game mechanics. The only thing I can think of, IF, the balance is bad is give to sniper rifles a severe negative reaction fire bonus.

Edited by StellarRat
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I disagree that heavy weapons are too easy to set up. The amount of garbage around the maps makes finding good positions for them difficult. Anyway, making heavy weapons harder to set up would slow down the game, which isn't cool.

Rockets are powerful but take a turn to set up, a turn to fire, and then a turn to reload. MG's I don't use at all because despite being heavy weapons they can't hit anything and they can't reliably suppress. Sniper rifles are the problem case. They totally outshine assault rifles.

If a slight decrease in the assault rifle and MG's range is paired with a significant boost to burst fire, that will be a good change. Accuracy should be increased, and TU's decreased to 30, maybe even 25 on the MG.

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I disagree that heavy weapons are too easy to set up. The amount of garbage around the maps makes finding good positions for them difficult. Anyway, making heavy weapons harder to set up would slow down the game, which isn't cool.

Rockets are powerful but take a turn to set up, a turn to fire, and then a turn to reload. MG's I don't use at all because despite being heavy weapons they can't hit anything and they can't reliably suppress. Sniper rifles are the problem case. They totally outshine assault rifles.

If a slight decrease in the assault rifle and MG's range is paired with a significant boost to burst fire, that will be a good change. Accuracy should be increased, and TU's decreased to 30, maybe even 25 on the MG.

Yeah, but you can still do plenty of damage with rockets, snipers and MGs even without setting them up. IMO they should be incapable of firing at all unless you take a turn to set up. Right now, I shoot from moving and standing with rockets and LMGs all the time and it works OK. Anyway, I guess we'll just disagree on this one.
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Sniper and machine gun are both currently really good, so buffing heavy weapon penalty would maybe go a long way in balancing them compared to AR and Shotty.

I would make sniper damage even higher and balance it by making moving and shooting almost a non choice. This way AR would be much more mobile and it would reinforce it's multifunction role.

Shotty would be more fun to use with double pellets (6) with lower accuracy (wider spread) and damage to make it even more CQ. I'd love to hit multiple adjacent enemies with it more often.

Edited by Skitso
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I personally think MGs are in a good spot right now. They are useful enough to where I always bring a few along, but not enough to where I start spamming them. They put a lot of heavy damage downrange, and sometimes it hits, but even when it doesn't it's ok because the enemy is pinned :).

Personally I just keep spamming them at any alien within my sight range, regardless of the chance to hit and it works wonders. It gives my troops more options in maneuvering, reduces the volume of return fire greatly, and sometimes even takes out a couple of enemies. Isn't that how they are supposed to be used?

Something unintended? They are absolutely deadly up close because the range negates the natural innacuracy of the weapon. I think they even hit harder than shotguns, although I would rather have a shotgun for breaching due to the reaction modifier.

Edited by legit1337
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I'm confused about why you think the MG is "really good". Sniper rifles and rocket launchers are both better at killing, and better at penetrating cover.
They are really good. When setup (one turn shooter crouched) and in the hands of an accurate shooter they can kill very efficiently out to sight range. I frequently get three of the five rounds on target. That will take down an Andron, Reaper, drone, etc... in one burst. They also tear up cover pretty well. My terror mission squad consists of two MG's, a vehicle and the rest rocket launchers. Edited by StellarRat
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In my experience LMGs rarely suppress anything and even more rarely hit anything at range so I stopped using them early game. Once you get predators though you can roll with nothing but machinguns, just walking up to bubs with near impunity and redecorating the walls.

I think the predator is imbalanced right now and makes the mid-late game combat too easy in general. It's just makes breaching and scouting way too easy (open field is always easy because of snipers, except against harridans sometimes). I just walk around not even caring about cover or grenades or anything anymore, even on battleship assaults or terror missions (which I hardly ever see because the air combat is too easy :( ). They probably own even harder in base assaults but I just stopped doing them altogether.

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In my experience LMGs rarely suppress anything and even more rarely hit anything at range so I stopped using them early game. Once you get predators though you can roll with nothing but machinguns, just walking up to bubs with near impunity and redecorating the walls.

I think the predator is imbalanced right now and makes the mid-late game combat too easy in general. It's just makes breaching and scouting way too easy (open field is always easy because of snipers, except against harridans sometimes). I just walk around not even caring about cover or grenades or anything anymore, even on battleship assaults or terror missions (which I hardly ever see because the air combat is too easy :( ). They probably own even harder in base assaults but I just stopped doing them altogether.

Isn't that how it should be? You're using top notch armor and weapons and finally have the advantage after much struggle and loss to the aliens. You should allowed to mow them down with impunity and enjoy it. That's the reward of all the research you've done and troops that were lost gaining the technology. I'd be mad if I had come that far and the aliens were still killing my troops left and right.
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It shouldn't, or shouldn't last anyway, because it's boring. Also stupid because there's no way my guys could scrape up a suit of armor in about a week, made from the alien's own materials no less, that is utterly superior to alien armor and weapons. Realistically speaking the Xenonauts should always remain technologically inferior overall. The reward for all the research you've done is continued survival in the face of a superior foe.

Balance wise predator armor is available pretty early. All you need is to down a landing ship and research 3 techs to start building. All you need is 2-3 suits, 2-3 scatter lasers which aren't very expensive in money or alloys. Hell you don't even strictly need advanced weapons - at point blank when every shot hits a full LMG burst does 175 damage which is enough to kill any Caesan or any Sebillian short of an elite.

I think they should definitely cost more money and a lot more resources and they should be nerfed to where standard alien plasmas have a reasonable chance of doing at least a little damage to them. Right now a guy in predator can still die but rarely and typically to Harridans. Everything else you can just face tank, effectively nullifying the need for tactics and caution.

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Hmmm...in most of my games I don't even have the option for Predator until about month four if I remember right. Considering the final mission is supposed to come around month five or six I don't agree that Predator is "early". It might be "mid" to "late". I guess it depends on where you focus your research.

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Haven't gotten to predator in any game yet. I personally think both of you are somewhat on opposite extremes.

Xenonauts should NOT be able to mow down aliens with impunity even at the highest tech levels. The aliens are too cunning and technologically superior for that.

But on the other side, the aliens should NOT be killing xenonauts wearing top end gear just as they would one wearing coveralls. It would invalidate the entire point of teching up in the game. Why would I waste money researching and building armor if the aliens kill me in one shot anyways? I'd rather just have my men use coveralls and spend the money elsewhere.

IMO, the apex of lategame research should let you fight the aliens as EQUALS. At the beginning you are severely outmatched, winning only through superiority of numbers, cunning strategy, and the fact that the aliens aren't taking you seriously yet. By the end of the game you have reverse engineered their technology and are throwing it right back at them and fighting them toe-to-toe, duking it out on equal terms with their most elite units. Research shouldn't be about being technologically superior to the aliens, it should be about getting to their level technologically in a very short amount of time and surprising them, something they probably have never seen in any species they have conquered.

STORY SPOILERS

Perhaps this is why the praetors are interested in conquering us. They conquered the sebs to exploit their natural healing ability and make themselves immortal. Perhaps they wish to conquer us because of our resourcefulness, ingenuity, and our remarkable capacity for creativity.

Edited by legit1337
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I meant relatively early. Before any of the big ships and tougher troops even show up. You need to focus your research, that's true, but there's not much of a dilemma with research. Explosives should be researched as soon as possible, wolf armor needs to be beelined to, get predator and marauders as soon as they're available. Research weapons in your spare time. The rest is of lesser importance.

legit1337

That's exactly what I meant.

Edited by AgentFransis
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I meant relatively early. Before any of the big ships and tougher troops even show up. You need to focus your research, that's true, but there's not much of a dilemma with research. Explosives should be researched as soon as possible, wolf armor needs to be beelined to, get predator and marauders as soon as they're available. Research weapons in your spare time. The rest is of lesser importance.

legit1337

That's exactly what I meant.

I usually go for Alenium explosives, Wolf, Scimitar, and stun and laser weapons. I find that's sufficient for most missions. During mid-game I'm usually trying to get better aircraft because it's really hard to deal with cruisers and battleships with only Foxtrots and Condors. Predator armor usually comes after I've got the tech for Corsairs and Marauders. I'm probably working more toward better air power than you might be. I've never gotten far enough in the game to build much after that because a new version comes out and I go back to square one! Or I have a bug(s) that's so annoying I wait for the next release. Edited by StellarRat
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I am playing on the latest experimental build through Steam, which I guess must be V21 Experimental 3 (since I installed the game after this date). I have played a number of maps and by now, but I haven't played any of the older versions so I don't know how things were previously. Just wanted to give my feedback so far. Also if this is the wrong thread I apologize in advance (I am a newbie to this forum).

Civilians often run past your guys towards the aliens, positioning them in front of your soldiers. Civilians also don't seem to be afraid of the crashed UFO; they will run towards it as they would any other object. This seems unrealistic I think, the civilians may be panicked and running around without much thought, but they shouldn't run into very obvious danger like a crashed UFO should they? I guess civilian AI has just not yet been programmed to behave a just bit more sensible?

Aliens seem to one-shot my guys way to often. I can say that when some of the green reptilian type aliens shoot it almost always hit me and almost always kill my guy, even at above medium distances. Often my guys is behind some kind of cover, like hidden halfway behind a corner, the alien just shoots once and hits and soldier dies. I guess that if one of my guys were in the aliens position their hit chance with a standard assault rifle would maybe something like 17% aimed or something or less. I think I have noticed that this high accuracy happens much more with the reptilian types of aliens, than with the small grey aliens.

Maybe it is supposed to be like this? I mean the reptilians in the Crimson Dagger novella(awesome story btw) was pretty hardy and had some serious firepower, so I can understand why they kick my ass so bad. Not sure if this is the same kind of reptilians I have faced? I am just wondering if I will ever see my guys develop if the current rate of death continues.

I have resorted to using grenades and rocket launchers as much as I can just to prevent the death of my soldiers. Therefore I am not really recovering any aliens corpses because they are reduced to pinkish alien paste in the explosions. Oh, and in relation to that I also noticed how the environment seems much too difficult to destroy; grenades and rocket launchers only seem to produce small cracks in building walls; need two rockets to make a hole in a wall. Maybe one rocket should do the trick? At least when we are talking about a one/two layered brick wall?

The difficulty seems to be akin to the highest difficulty of the original X-COM. Am I way off in my experiences of ground combat?

Edited by Spacemonger
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