Ground Combat Balance Discussion - V21 Experimental Balance Patch!

[Chris]

These are the changes in the balance patch:

- Smoke grenades no longer block line of sight. Instead, smoke reduces shot accuracy by 20% for each tile of smoke the projectile passes through.

- Alien accuracy global modifier reduced by 10%

- Soldier strength carry formula changed to 6kg + (0.3*Strength), giving 50 strength soldiers similar carry capacity but making stronger / weaker soldiers more extreme.

- Combat shields now have 100% chance of blocking shots from the front, but still 60% from the sides. HP increased from 60 to 80, and 120 to 160 for Assault Shields.

- Alien grenade damage nerfed a bit

- Burst fire on alien Plasma Rifles nerfed to 40 accuracy, down from 55

The smoke change is a deceptively large change, so it'll be interesting to see what effect it has. The aliens have been made a bit less accurate too, so see how this plays.

Remember, if you've played X-Com before then you should be playing on Veteran rather than Normal.

[Max_Caine]

Only two missions in so far, both light scout missions, so first impressions. Very pleased that shields now block damage 100% from the front, my shieldmen still pack extra shields because shields vanish vey quickly, but what can you do? I'm going to try Falesh's strategy out again, see if that has better legs now that shields block.

Caesan noncoms seemed to be missing a lot inside the lght scout UFO, at a range when they should have drilled one of my guys. I think that's more to do with the strange hit calculation Skitso reported.

Smoke is very interesting - odd to be able to see through it again after it block vision for so long. I can tell it's having an effect, but the red negative modifier doesn't show up - would that be worth adding?

As soon as initative-based reaction fire is inroduced I'll breathe a sigh of relief, as the reflex-based system is still a nightmare.

EDIT: Please don't get rid of the ability for other kinds of smoke to block all sight - I think coupled with a damage or a stun element, that could make a good weapon for the aliens to use - didn't Aaron say something about making poison smoke gas grenades for Sebillians?

EDIT 2: Heck, you could have poison gas for the Sebbies and stun gas for the Caesans. Take that humanity! Have some of your own gas back at 'cha!

Edited January 16, 2014 by Max_Caine

[Mutton]

So far I like the smoke changes though (I've no idea if this is intentional) the smoke created by blowing things up with c4 still appears to be the darker stuff you can't see through just so you know though that feels right I don't know if it is.

On the subject of c4, does it do less damage vs people? One of my shield users in jackal armour threw some at his feet and with no ap's left (...it would have been a cool clutch move had he not thrown it at his feet....) ate it right in the face but instead of being blown to kingdom come he just had a broken shield, other then that he was completely fine which was a bit of a suprise.

[Ol' Stinky]

Shields absorb any excess damage, so a shield with 1hp will fully absorb a 999 damage shot before breaking. Shieldbearers usually take some damage from explosions though, so that's weird. In the past I've had shield guys block but take damage from alien plasma canons and the like, I'm sure.

[Skitso]

I'm getting passive aliens again. I had a terror mission in western city (the one with shop at the top left corner.) I wondered why it was so silent and calm... Well, there was 4 sebillian camping at the back wall of this store and 2 in the other building back there. They stood there, doing their standard kneeling/standing routine and didn't do much else until reaction fired me to hell and back when I rushed them. Sound tactics maybe... but boring! And I didn't feel one bit terrified or scared, but they sure looked like it.

Also kinda wish for more aliens in bigger ufo's like landing ship. I just had 3 outside and 4 inside... a bit of an anti climatic, gotta say.

[Skitso]

Ah, I just figured out why the sebillians were so passive inside the store (read previous post). For some bizarre reason windows block shooting 100%. So they cant fire because their accuracy is 0% This needs to change! As it is, first bullet stops always to the window, which it obviously shouldn't.

I remember seeing other windows in different tilesets that are completely unbreakable too. You just shoot them until the whole wall crumbles down...

[MrPyro]

Ah, I just figured out why the sebillians were so passive inside the store (read previous post). For some bizarre reason windows block shooting 100%. So they cant fire because their accuracy is 0% This needs to change! As it is, first bullet stops always to the window, which it obviously shouldn't.

I remember seeing other windows in different tilesets that are completely unbreakable too. You just shoot them until the whole wall crumbles down...

Isn't this related to the hypervelocity code, which I seem to recall having been a big pain in the past?

I don't really mind having to spend a shot to destroy the glass; the weapons in use in the game can all easily break glass, but the first shot is likely to be deflected, refracted or in some other way impaired enough to be ineffective. The AI should be aware that it can shoot out windows though.

[Chris]

Yes, windows are tied to hypervelocity and they're not working as intended at the moment. It's on our fix list.

[Solver]

Thoughts after two battles.

Shields feel much better. You can rely on them in the front, and they are not too strong.

Smoke is balanced. If there's time, I would like it to be reverted to a LOS blocker with alien AI handling it correctly. But if there is no time for that, the current solution works.

The flashbang-into-UFO bug is still there, rendering bangs useless in these situations.

Still not enough back-and-forth feeling to fights. I'd rather decrease alien health and human accuracy. If you're lucky enough to hire a soldier with accuracy in the high 60s, he doesn't even need any experience, hits anything right off the bat.

[Khall]

I think putting cover percentages back up to their original values would be a good idea. Decreasing movement costs was meant to promote flanking, but there's no need for if cover isn't that effective anyway. The increase in overall accuracy punishes players that leave units exposed (good idea) and already more shots would be on target on a unit behind cover than the previous accuracy values, which would demolish the cover quicker than before, therefore I think decreasing the cover save of cover is a bit overkill. Entrenched units should be hard to take out without flanking, explosives or sniper rifles (the high accuracy of the upper aim levels would negate most of the cover bonus, which would also give them a niche beside hypervelocity). And it would bring back the firefight feelings of previous versions without decreasing the atmosphere of lethality be reducing accuracy.

Right now its a bit frustrating to have troops regularly taken out with one shot behind cover, it seems like the only way to avoid casualties it to end turn out of alien LOS.

[jeon]

So far I like the smoke changes though (I've no idea if this is intentional) the smoke created by blowing things up with c4 still appears to be the darker stuff you can't see through just so you know though that feels right I don't know if it is.

On the subject of c4, does it do less damage vs people? One of my shield users in jackal armour threw some at his feet and with no ap's left (...it would have been a cool clutch move had he not thrown it at his feet....) ate it right in the face but instead of being blown to kingdom come he just had a broken shield, other then that he was completely fine which was a bit of a suprise.

The shield taking the full force of the explosion is an unintentional consequence of shield block being upped to 100%.

[Max_Caine]

I don't know whether this constitutes a problem or not, but when I have a shield guy I always put a shield in each hand slot and put another two shields in his backpack. That way I maximise the number of shields my shield guy can carry/use. The rest of the space I fill with grenades and a stun rod (if I have one) and he acts like a bunker. I'm fairly certain this isn't intended behaviour, but it's behaviour that maximises the use of my shield guy.

EDIT: Having thought about it a bit, when the initative system is introduced, could stun rods have a 2x or 1.5x reflex modifier? I think it would be entirely appropriate for shock jocks to have half a chance to close in.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Max_Caine

[Ol' Stinky]

Is anyone else seeing long load times when it comes to the ground combat summary screen? Sometimes it's fine and takes hardly any time, sometimes I have to wait a couple of minutes, and sometimes I have to wait ~7 minutes.

[Skitso]

Ive noticed some fluctuation there but is more like between instant and maybe 15 seconds..

[Dranak]

Is anyone else seeing long load times when it comes to the ground combat summary screen? Sometimes it's fine and takes hardly any time' date=' sometimes I have to wait a couple of minutes, and sometimes I have to wait ~7 minutes.[/quote']

Did you try disabling stat tracking on the launcher? I know if I enable that on my laptop it hangs forever.

[Ol' Stinky]

Did you try disabling stat tracking on the launcher? I know if I enable that on my laptop it hangs forever.

I'll try that, thanks.

[Nick7532]

While playing some missions I have noticed three things. First, local forces don't always spawn with a gun. I found this out because I kill middle east local forces for their AKs. Two, if they have a gun, they cannot move or reaction fire, once again found this out by hunting locals for AKs. Three, AK has been super nerfed to the point where it is useless and may actually be causing problem two. I have noticed, through extensive use, that the AKs effective range was halved with this experimental version and you also took away the 30 round mags >:C But I think the local forces may be refusing to fire because the AK, even with an aimed shot, becomes so inaccurate so fast that I had to have soldiers with 70 aim just to use it without hitting the guy standing behind them.

[Alexey]

I think putting cover percentages back up to their original values would be a good idea.

Right now its a bit frustrating to have troops regularly taken out with one shot behind cover, it seems like the only way to avoid casualties it to end turn out of alien LOS.

*I agree with Khall, I liked firefights with aliens vs soldiers in good cover(with orginal high values), lots of bullets, blown up cover, need for launchers, grenades, suppression and flanking moves!

Now with reduced cover it is more: see, shot, get out of LOS.

*But I'd like to suggest: reduce some 100% cover to maybe 80%. Small clusters of thin trees, bush fences (in farm maps), strange that they block LOS and shots completely.

[Alexey]

I played V21 experimental 1 for couple days now. My impressions:

1) I like 3 TU cost to move (but think crouch/stand up should be 3 TU also). Battles more dynamic.

2) Do not like cover % reduction. I think makes battles less tactical.

3) Like increased alien accuracy/less health. More dangerous aliens. May be too accurate, but increasing cover % should balance it.

4) Good that there are noncoms and guards in ships, makes fighting more diverse. But think number of aliens per ship should be increased.

5) Like new smoke. It is not a solid wall to reduce shots accu 100%, block reaction and LOS.

6) Noticed one time passive aliens with guns in the ship not firing at soldiers in LOS in cover outside the ship (I blew up door and just waited in LOS outside the ship for couple turns, no direct fire from aliens, only reaction shot).

7) And just suggerstion, please teach aliens to rarely/sometimes open/close doors of thier ship, to scout or assist troops close to entrance. It will make missions more unexpected.

[ventuswings]

Having thought about it a bit, when the initative system is introduced, could stun rods have a 2x or 1.5x reflex modifier? I think it would be entirely appropriate for shock jocks to have half a chance to close in.

Not sure about this one as stun grenades/rockets are already bit underpowered at the moment. Also, wouldn't introduction of initiative system lead to less reaction fires than the current system?

The old XCOM had similar initiative system and stun rods were viable back then, except that they could only be used against aliens you knew had little TU instead of all the time. Xenonauts already have suppression grenades and shields which can make stunning aliens not as dangerous as lore suggests. In V19 and 20, and I assume even now in V21 after the shield block percentage bug are patched out, shield-baton banzai charge are already enough of a viable tactic that I fear that giving stun rods greater modifier will make inherent disadvantage of using melee weapon completely irrelevant.

[Max_Caine]

Fair doos.

With the reduced TU costs, I've noticed that I've been redlining my weight percentage lot more now. I find myself fitting in one more grenade or magazine and balancing that against the AP reduction. Anyone else find that?

[legit1337]

If anyone hasn't said this already. I think crouching and standing need to be 3 TUs instead of 4. Also the bug where you double click a crouching soldier and he stands up at no TU cost needs to be patched if it hasn't already, that one is seriously annoying.

[Ol' Stinky]

Fair doos.

With the reduced TU costs, I've noticed that I've been redlining my weight percentage lot more now. I find myself fitting in one more grenade or magazine and balancing that against the AP reduction. Anyone else find that?

If I need more stuff, I completely fill one or two guys' inventory, have them sit at the back of the chinook, and then dump the excess weight at the start of a mission. I don't like sacrificing TUs for weight unless I have to (usually for armour wearers).

If anyone hasn't said this already. I think crouching and standing need to be 3 TUs instead of 4. Also the bug where you double click a crouching soldier and he stands up at no TU cost needs to be patched if it hasn't already, that one is seriously annoying.

Agreed on both counts.

---

As the only guy who uses electroshock grenades, I'm going to ask once again that they're buffed to remove the end-of-turn explosion.

• They require researching to use, after you complete Alien Electronics, which unlocks a bunch of stuff.

• ESs are like flashbangs, but worse, because they explode at the end of the turn. Flashbangs produce less suppression but are free research-wise and explode instantly.

• ESs are like stun gas grenades, but worse, because they explode at the end of the turn. Splash stun/damage is so feeble that you're only going to stun anything with a few direct hits, unlike a stun gas grenade which can KO an alien trying to get out of a huge gas cloud.

• ESs can affect Androns unlike the two other grenades above, and I'll admit they're good with a direct hit on them. But with cover as it is, why would I bring along a grenade that's only good against one Andron at a time when I could just, y'know, shoot them instead? FBs/SGGs are useless against Androns and drones, it's true, but are better against...every other race.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Ol' Stinky

[Ol' Stinky]

The alien heavy plasma rifle needs to become a support-only weapon instead of the de facto weapon of Seb and Andron soldiers and warriors. By all means give aliens shotguns - more weapon variety's great! - but not at the cost of ranged weapons.

[MrPyro]

The alien heavy plasma rifle needs to become a support-only weapon instead of the de facto weapon of Seb and Andron soldiers and warriors. By all means give aliens shotguns - more weapon variety's great! - but not at the cost of ranged weapons.

It should stay the weapon of choice in base assaults, though (both aliens attacking and defending), as it is nasty in the close confines of that mission type.

If possible, on a crashed UFO, aliens with rifles should be more likely to be found outside the UFO, while the heavy plasmas should be more likely to be inside, where it's a more useful weapon.