Reapers too powerful?

[ziame]

Is it just me, or are the Reaper dudes SERIOUSLY over the top?

I mean, they are the most annoying things in the game

1. One hit kills

2. Reproduces by one hit kills

3. Tough as balls to kill

Now, reproduction is quite an awesome mechanic, I always like that in both XEU and here. However those one hit kills get me worked up more than they should. But I just lost 3 predator-clad troopers to one Reaper.

I just think that at least full body armours (sentinel/predator) should protect from them:

normal armor -> one hit kill -> zombie

full armour -> needs to kill (take them hps down to 0) -> zombie

While, additionally, I think that zombie->reaper transformation shouldn't be instant. It should take at least one turn, methinks. It's just highly improbable for a human to transform into a zombie-bloat AND from zombie-bloat into a Reaper in, what, 10 seconds? Amount of energy required would rip that thing apart by itself.

I am trying to start a discussion, not a flame war, so please don't yell at me

[StellarRat]

The only thing I don't like about Reapers is you have to kill them twice if it's in the first stage (I think.) Perhaps they should have to stop moving for one full turn while they are switching stages. So, attack, turn to zombie frozen in place, zombie moves/attacks, then turns to reaper frozen in place for one full turn. At least then you could blow them up with C4 or something while they were vulnerable.

[RuskiVolkov]

I agree with StellarRat. I'm alright with the difficulty at which reapers are at, but the fact that they can move right after transforming is a real pain in the neck. One of the scariest things to me is shooting a reaper standing next to a recently changed human, having run out of TUs. If I miss the reaper and kill the zombie I've got two full TU reapers running everyone down next turn and it's game over.

[StellarRat]

I can't remember if the Crysilids in the OG could move on the transformation turn. I'm thinking no, but I could be wrong. Another problem is that they are introduced into the game rather early on when you really don't have any weapons that can kill them easily. It takes a full burst of laser fire to kill one. If you don't have tank or lasers you're in deep er stuff...

Chris, did you take into account that faster movement in the last build makes Reapers much more deadly? Since they rely completely on movement to attack any decrease in movement costs makes them more powerful in combat by a squared factor i.e. halving the movement costs equals increases the area they can attack in by a factor of four. (This is not true of unit that shoot or take other actions because you didn't decrease their shooting TUs.)

Edited January 15, 2014 by StellarRat

[ventuswings]

I can't remember if the Crysilids in the OG could move on the transformation turn. I'm thinking no, but I could be wrong. Another problem is that they are introduced into the game rather early on when you really don't have any weapons that can kill them easily. It takes a full burst of laser fire to kill one. If you don't have tank or lasers you're in deep er stuff...

You guys are under-estimating how powerful the Chryssalids were back then. At original, if you killed zombie with reaction fire, Chryssalid that subsequently hatches could move right away. They were also resistant enough to take a heavy rocket hit to the face and frequently survive (though I do play Superhuman only). I really like how Xenonauts kept the lethality of Chryssalids that gave its signature infamy, unlike new XCOM which butchered them to such extent that the sight of one - instead of feeling you with utter horror - could actually make player happy as valuable source of Chitin Plating.

Of course, the effect of turn movement cost from 4 -> 3 is something to take into account, but it is my opinion that balance regarding the Wraith needs more attention at the moment... Just wanted to get the counter-argument out here.

If truly necessary, I'd relegate their frequency back to rare terror missions instead.

Edited January 15, 2014 by ventuswings

[Max_Caine]

Old-School Cryssalids were extremely powerful. In fact, they covered far more ground than Reapers can (20+ tiles!!!), but power armour would occasionally give you half a chance, whereas with these Reapers you stand zero chance. I think the armour penetration value (which stands at 500!) should be dropped, as the Reaper does more than enough damage (100) to zombify anything but the best protected as it is.

[Saskali]

Personally i find them too weak. In the OG i feared them a lot (sucha high amount of TUs) before having my flying armor from which point they just became irrelevant.

If you cant kill them with guns just grenade them they dont have any stuff anyways so you wont loose any monney by doing it. Usually in my game 1-2 grenades are enough to blow them. Dont waste shots on them they are so resistent to balistic. Same for zombies just put 3 grenades on the zombie (usually 2 is quite enough for me the tird is to be sure) the first one kills the zombie and the second one the reaper the third one always (from what i remember) blows on nothing.

Cant say for alpha reapers tough

[Chris]

New Reapers should spawn with 0 TUs if they are spawned by killing the zombie. If that's not happening, it's a bug.

I did update the TU and health to broadly take into account the new balance changes, but I've not playtested any missions with Reapers yet so I can't comment on their specific balance right now.

[Dead Dread]

appear to have dble posted sorry

[Dead Dread]

Yeah, OG Cryssalids could walk in FROM OUT OF SIGHT RANGE and STILL HIT YOU resulting in instadeath... ON THE EASIEST DIFFICULTY! Thats why you had to do the whole move forward and then retreat a bunch of squares to make sure you were far enough away to avoid contact. Was annoying as hell. Personally I think if you mow down the zombie stage then you should have neutralised the Cryssalid for a turn.. ie it takes all of its TUs to transform from Zombie to Cryssalid, otherwise like in the original game your going to have unwanted reaction fire kill zombies and expose a full TU loaded Cryssalid in your face. {EDIT] Good to hear this is the case Chris![/EDIT]

And why the hell are they called Reapers in xenonauts!?!? Reapers were in the OG and were a completely different enemy, I know it's getting rather late to change things but this one irks me.

[llunak]

New Reapers should spawn with 0 TUs if they are spawned by killing the zombie. If that's not happening, it's a bug.

It's a bug (http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/8788-V20-Hotfix-08-01-2014-Ground-Combat-Reapers-spawn-from-zombies-with-full(-)-TUs).

I did update the TU and health to broadly take into account the new balance changes, but I've not playtested any missions with Reapers yet so I can't comment on their specific balance right now.

When I tried that specific save I added to the bugreport, the newly hatched Reaper actually managed to get past the barrage from those 6 soldiers (4x laser rifles, 2x precision lasers, and the soldiers were no woosies). It's V20 Veteran, but that's still probably a bit too much. EDIT: Well, V20 Veteran is actually V21 Insane if I'm not mistaken, so maybe that's ok after all.

Edited January 15, 2014 by llunak

[ventuswings]

Nice. So further modification won't be necessary after getting that TU bug stamped out

[Ol' Stinky]

And why the hell are they called Reapers in xenonauts!?!? Reapers were in the OG and were a completely different enemy, I know it's getting rather late to change things but this one irks me.

They were the ones that came with floaters, right? I didn't even remember them until you brought them up. I never thought "oh no! reapers are here, everyone, back in the ship!", which is a crime for a 2x2 unit.

[TrashMan]

What I mind is the new repaers being at full health after you shredding the host body to pieces.

[StellarRat]

It's a bug (http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/8788-V20-Hotfix-08-01-2014-Ground-Combat-Reapers-spawn-from-zombies-with-full(-)-TUs).

When I tried that specific save I added to the bugreport, the newly hatched Reaper actually managed to get past the barrage from those 6 soldiers (4x laser rifles, 2x precision lasers, and the soldiers were no woosies). It's V20 Veteran, but that's still probably a bit too much. EDIT: Well, V20 Veteran is actually V21 Insane if I'm not mistaken, so maybe that's ok after all.

Make sure to file a bug report!

[StellarRat]

What I mind is the new repaers being at full health after you shredding the host body to pieces.

Make sure to file a bug report!

[Dead Dread]

They were the ones that came with floaters' date=' right? I didn't even remember them until you brought them up. I never thought "oh no! reapers are here, everyone, back in the ship!", which is a crime for a 2x2 unit.[/quote']

Yeah because they were so big they were easy to hit and kill, here's a link and pic for the uninitiated;

Reaper vs Chryssalid

[Chris]

No, Reapers are meant to spawn at full health after you kill the zombie. It's not realistic, but it makes you think more carefully about when you kill the zombies. The 0 TU thing is to stop it being totally overpowered.

[tiago_oldman]

The thing that made Chryssalid terrifying was its special near immunity to lasers. That meant that thigns could go very bad very fast.

I would love if different aliens in xenonauts had different resilience to each type of weapon.

[Dranak]

No, Reapers are meant to spawn at full health after you kill the zombie. It's not realistic, but it makes you think more carefully about when you kill the zombies. The 0 TU thing is to stop it being totally overpowered.

Just for clarity, do you mean that if they hatch during the alien turn (either from time, or reaction fire/grenades) they should have 0 TUs for that turn, but if they hatch during the player's turn (from shooting the zombie) they should have full TUs their first turn as a reaper?

[Chris]

If a Reaper hatches from a zombie during the alien turn, it has full HP and TU. If the zombie is killed during the human turn and a Reaper appears, it should have full HP but no TU.

[StellarRat]

If a Reaper hatches from a zombie during the alien turn, it has full HP and TU. If the zombie is killed during the human turn and a Reaper appears, it should have full HP but no TU.

Hmmm...I think no matter when hatches it shouldn't have any TUs. Isn't the act of hatching the reason it can't move? To not have it work the same way in every case isn't very consistent or logical.

[RuskiVolkov]

Do I remember correctly that laser shots could kill a cryssalid in one shot?

Also I did a seb medium base and a few of my soldiers got turned, I noticed this time around they didn't move right after. Reinstalling the game so I could cleanly play v21 experimental seemed to have done the trick maybe.

[Belmakor]

What about if Reapers started on 50% health and 50% TU's after they hatch with each turn giving them back 10% of the missing stats?

In a gaming sense it means you don't get this horrible snowball effect if one reaper gets in among you.

In a realistic sense it perfectly reflects the effects of infancy (albeit with a massive maturity rate).

[TrashMan]

No, Reapers are meant to spawn at full health after you kill the zombie. It's not realistic, but it makes you think more carefully about when you kill the zombies. The 0 TU thing is to stop it being totally overpowered.

Because half HP wouldn'tbe enough to make you watch out?

Personally, I cut the damage and armor migation of reapers down considerably. They really shouldn't 1-hit-kill-zombie, epecially not against advnaced armor.

The predator cna resist superheated plasma and railgun, but a claw punches trough it with easy? I never liked that in any setting that pits mechanical technology vs. biology.

What I would do (if I was you) was not to nerf Repaer HP, but nerf their attack. Also, no instant zombification.

If someone is killed by a reaper, they drop dead.

Then in a turn or two they raise back again as a zombie (you can blow up the corpse to prevent zomobification...BUT, you will blow up the items too).

Then in 1-2 turns the zombie bursts into a new reaper.

Completely blowing up a zombie so there is no corpse = no reaper.

This also presents you with a dillema - a zombie is weak compared to a repaer, but do you risk not shooting him and shooting other targets instead? Will he become a full-blown repaer in 1 turn? 2? Do you blow up a corpse, and that snazzy new laser rifle with it?

I find it is much more realistic, while preserving the difficult decisions and the danger of a reaper.

Edited January 19, 2014 by TrashMan