Geoscape Balance Discussion Build V21 Experimental 1!

[Chris]

Here's the place to discuss balance changes from the Geoscape in V21 Experimental 1.

[Solver]

On the topic of air battle, I still propose speeding up the Chinook as mentioned for the previous experimental builds.

I'd also consider decreasing the rearm times on planes a bit. I get the idea, but I'd still like to be able to run a few more sorties during a wave. It's annoying anyway how my ground crew is apparently unable to rearm the plane while refueling it, instead waiting for it to be fully fueled first!

[legit1337]

If I remember correctly re-arming takes 1 hour. I think this is a good number... Refueling should be 1 hour too.

[Solver]

I think rearm is 1 hour per weapon, so 2 missiles take 2 hours.

[legit1337]

Blegh... total re-arming should take 1 hour! What kind of lazy-ass crew takes an hour to put on a single missile?

[Ol' Stinky]

It's probably not news, but here it is anyway. Air combat autoresolve doesn't take into account existing damage, so a scout vs. a foxtrot autoresolve has the same 85% chance as a scout at a quarter health against a foxtrot. Another issue is that the amount of damage a foxtrot can do against a scout in autoresolve's not representative of unresolved combat: a foxtrot should always lose against a scout because its two avalanches can't take down a scout at full health, but with autoresolve you get that 85% chance of victory.

[StellarRat]

I feel the UFO size progression is too fast on Veteran (formally "Normal".) I got cruisers and battleships to deal with and it's not even January yet. I have 30 scientists and just recently got Wolf, Alenium, lasers and Corsairs researched.

Edited January 12, 2014 by StellarRat

[Korgath]

Sounds like you might be a bit behind. In a new game on this build I got lasers, alienium explosives and the foxtrot in the first month alone.

[KateMicucci]

The balance between having a couple of bases with tons of fighters vs. having several bases with a pair needs to be looked at. At first it seems like a good idea to quickly build bases to cover as many continents as possible with just a radar and 1-2 hangars, then maybe missile batteries and a living quarters when base assaults start happening. However it quickly becomes obvious that this is a losing strategy, as even with upgraded weapons 2 fighters have trouble taking out a medium UFO with escorts. If several UFOs spawn at once in the same region that pushes the need even more towards having several wings per base. The corsair is 3x the cost of a condor but has the same firepower, making that upgrade useless if you just don't have enough missiles to bring down a big UFO.

Maybe it would be good to make UFOs easier for small groups to take down, but there are too many of them for just a few planes to get them all?

[Max_Caine]

Is there a way to make the Foxtrot have only heavy missiles? If that could be done, then the Foxtrot has a defined role - anti capital ship, and you could stick the other missile slots on it without it becoming a multi-role fighter.

[Ashery]

@StellarRat: You're definitely a bit behind tech wise. Korgath seems to be further than most should be, but I'm at a similar tech point as you and it's only the start of November (Immediately expanded to thirty scientists and have stayed at that level).

@KateMicucci: I believe your issue boils down to both not using Foxtrots and not building a full squad of three planes. Overbuilding is also a huge issue (500k for a third base is enough to fully (for the early game) equip your second base with two Condors and a Foxtrot) and I made a mistake in a similar vein on my first game. You should only be expanding as far as money allows; a new base is a pointless investment if it doesn't have the fighters to handle the types of craft that are being thrown at you.

[KateMicucci]

I believe your issue boils down to both not using Foxtrots

I am building Foxtrots. I only have condors to kill fighters.

and not building a full squad of three planes.

Yeah, that's my point. IIRC it was never necessary to have more than 2 fighters per base in the OG. The huge fleets that seem to be normal here is pushing focus too much towards air combat. Winning on the ground rather than in the air should be the main challenge of the game- but that's a different issue.

and I made a mistake in a similar vein on my first game. You should only be expanding as far as money allows; a new base is a pointless investment if it doesn't have the fighters to handle the types of craft that are being thrown at you.

Right. Unless you already have foreknowledge of what the waves are going to look like, you don't know how to plan for them, and by the time bigger UFOs show up its too late to do anything about them if you haven't got your air fleets organized the right way.

[Max_Caine]

I strongly believe that air combat should be resolvable within a single engagement. To that end I went and messed around with aircraft and UFO stats (plug plug). Brief history lesson. The Foxtrot used to have 4 missile slots. Flight Commander Dranak showed how the Foxtrot dominated the skies. You didn't need anything else - not even Marauders. So, the Foxtrot got walloped with the nerf bat and lost 2 of its missile slots. The problem as I see it is the Foxtrot needs those 2 extra slots IF you want air combat to be over in one sortie, because only the Marauder with its combo of 2 heavy missiles and a cannon (the plasma cannon and MAG cannon are very dangerous) can really do the job in on sortie.

What I've found is if you shorten the range of torpedoes to be less than missiles, give the Foxtrot 4 missile slots and bump up the HP of the Foxtrot a little it can act as a multi-role fighter but it does poorly verses escorts (since it can't dodge). What the Foxtrot does well is wallop captial-class UFOs, which is what it's supposed to do. Only you don't need to send a flight out to clean away the escorts, then a full flight of Foxtrots to zap the capital-class UFO.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Max_Caine

[Korgath]

@StellarRat: You're definitely a bit behind tech wise. Korgath seems to be further than most should be, but I'm at a similar tech point as you and it's only the start of November (Immediately expanded to thirty scientists and have stayed at that level).

I would agree that I'm a bit further ahead than usual. I'm on normal just now however so unless veteran changes the research times it should be achievable to get the same results as myself providing you research things efficiently and build a new laboratory as soon as the game begins and then fill it as soon as possible. I could even have shaved off another 1.5 days of research or there abouts if I had the option to hire scientists in advance of the lab being built but we can't.

My research was: Alien Invasion > High-Speed Interceptor > Alien Plasma Pistol > Alien Plasma Rifle > Laser Technology > Alienium > Alenium Explosives and now I'm going straight to Wolf Armour (Skipping jackal and investing the money into bases/fighters instead)

[EDIT]

I got 3 light scout spawns on the first day of play and I believe I also got the first of the normal sized scout spawns on the globe as well. If you don't then that would probably add a few days onto your research of alenium but you could do the improved armour research in between the laser tech and alenium to try bridge that gap.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Korgath

[Ashery]

I am building Foxtrots. I only have condors to kill fighters.

Ah, my bad.

Yeah, that's my point. IIRC it was never necessary to have more than 2 fighters per base in the OG. The huge fleets that seem to be normal here is pushing focus too much towards air combat. Winning on the ground rather than in the air should be the main challenge of the game- but that's a different issue.

The original had really poorly balanced air combat, with Avalanche missiles upgrading to the plasma cannon and you're able to take down most everything, so one shouldn't really compare it to the original.

Even with autoresolving air combat, I'm still quite happy with the shift in focus. The ground combat could still be considered the core of the game, but the air combat is no longer nearly meaningless. It definitely takes a shift in style, though, but that'll happen in any game that's not a line-for-line remake. The trivial nature of the original's air combat is what lead to the limited number of fighters per base. Compound that with the waves you see in Xenonauts and, yea, you already know where that gets you, heh.

Right. Unless you already have foreknowledge of what the waves are going to look like, you don't know how to plan for them, and by the time bigger UFOs show up its too late to do anything about them if you haven't got your air fleets organized the right way.

Same could be said for a lot of things in the original. Knowing that Avalanche missiles -> plasma cannon trivializes air combat and all the little other nuances that an experienced player exploits to win.

You're exactly right that it's largely too late if you notice you're severely underbuilt in the middle of a wave, though (Like my first game; 200k swing and the massive wave was still ongoing). Not quite sure how that can be addressed without completely redoing all the funding and air combat mechanics, however.

[Ol' Stinky]

I think Korgath has the right idea in skipping jackal armour. Jackal and lasers don't seem to have a place. Granted it might be because I didn't get a ground terror attack or alien base, but I was able to make do with ballistic weapons. I did make a couple of jackals but it was a waste of money; previously I'd pass on the old jackals to non-scouts, but now that's not a good idea. I had a suit of wolf ready for my second corv battle, iirc, so jackal's obsolete very quickly. That was late Oct/early Nov, I think. And now that I have a landing ship reactor I can hold out for plasma weapons. Lasers are probably in a bit better place than jackal since I could see myself building one or two laser rifles in the meantime, since the first landing ship escaped my grasp, slowing down my research.

Another thing about autoresolve I forgot to mention: it should take into account combat time. You can have an autoresolve 100% victory with 1 second of battle.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Ol' Stinky

[Max_Caine]

I'd disagree that Jackal doesn't have a place. I've had too many of my guys who would have otherwise died to the New and Tasty plasma rifles be saved by Jackal armour to dismiss it out-of-hand. Buuut, regarding lasers, while you can get them quicker thanks to rifles and pistols being available straight off the bat, I'd say the pushing back of soldier-class aliens to landingships and the general non-appearance of Androns hurts the need for lasers. I say push Androns (guard class only) forward, into Scouts, and push solider-class into Corvettes.

[Ol' Stinky]

I'd disagree that Jackal doesn't have a place. I've had too many of my guys who would have otherwise died to the New and Tasty plasma rifles be saved by Jackal armour to dismiss it out-of-hand. Buuut, regarding lasers, while you can get them quicker thanks to rifles and pistols being available straight off the bat, I'd say the pushing back of soldier-class aliens to landingships and the general non-appearance of Androns hurts the need for lasers. I say push Androns (guard class only) forward, into Scouts, and push solider-class into Corvettes.

I'd be for that.

Fighters probably give too much of a reward right now. I have 311 alloys in stores, having done a total of 11 ground combats at time of writing (all UFO retrievals). I've also got 88 alenium, and although I could build a corsair to use up 30, I think I'll buy another hanger at base #3 and get a foxtrot instead.

[Max_Caine]

Yeah, I think there should be more alloy usage. Currently I find it really easy to stockpile a lot of the stuff. Plasma weapons esp. should take up a fair whack of it.

EDIT: You know what? I think it might be better to give Corsairs heavy slots, and let the Marauder be a straight upgrade of the Corsair. That way they aren't obsolete and provide a cheaper variant to the heavier Marauder.

[Solver]

The problem with Jackal is that it has the same weight as Wolf also. It would have a role if it was a lighter suit of armour that you can assign to soldiers not strong enough for Wolf. But they are equally heavy, and Wolf is so much better, and can be there for the first Corvettes.

Air combat also does have problems as is very correctly noted. Foxtrots are good vs. heavier ships but useless vs. escorts, which means you need to take the escorts out first with something else. Fine so far, but then you notice that the Condor is multirole and the Foxtrot sucks vs. any lighter ship, and that the upgrades are not compelling enough. A Corsair is just a faster and tougher Condor, and even then you don't want to rely too much on the toughness because the repair times are long.

Maybe the Foxtrot would be more fun if it had 2 torpedo-only and 2 missile-only slots? It would still be weak vs. small ships due to no gun or dodging ability, but it could still contribute with light missiles to fights vs. escorts.

[Solver]

The problem with Jackal is that it has the same weight as Wolf also. It would have a role if it was a lighter suit of armour that you can assign to soldiers not strong enough for Wolf. But they are equally heavy, and Wolf is so much better, and can be there for the first Corvettes.

Air combat also does have problems as is very correctly noted. Foxtrots are good vs. heavier ships but useless vs. escorts, which means you need to take the escorts out first with something else. Fine so far, but then you notice that the Condor is multirole and the Foxtrot sucks vs. any lighter ship, and that the upgrades are not compelling enough. A Corsair is just a faster and tougher Condor, and even then you don't want to rely too much on the toughness because the repair times are long.

Maybe the Foxtrot would be more fun if it had 2 torpedo-only and 2 missile-only slots? It would still be weak vs. small ships due to no gun or dodging ability, but it could still contribute with light missiles to fights vs. escorts.

[Dranak]

The missile number change was before my video, so I can't claim credit for that nerf.

The devs wanted to make air combat a larger part of the game than the OG, which brings us to our current situation of needing around 15 planes and the wonderful situation of "Well, you bought too many Condors as a new player, so now you're just screwed."

Hmm... I initially thought giving Corsairs heavy slots would be completely game breaking, but it really wouldn't change much. They have the same flight characteristics as Foxtrots, and Foxes can already kill everything except Battleships consistently. If Corsairs kept their cannons it might make for some cases where a single plane can solo certain UFOs, and generally make it easier to kill UFOs in a single engagement.

RE: Foxtrots and light missiles. You can already outfly anything other than an Interceptor if we're talking about escorted UFOs. Without the ability to roll, getting into position to even safely use a Sidewinder would be a lot of time/energy spent when you could just kill the main ship and fly away, leaving the escorts to despawn. Foxtrots are still almost too good, I don't think they need any further buffs.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Dranak

[Chris]

Again, the feedback is useful. The fact that there is debate over whether skipping tech is a viable tactic or not suggests that the balance isn't too far off being done; it's when something is definitely the only way to play the game that more balancing is needed.

You do need many more planes for the air combat in Xenonauts than in the OG, but I don't think that's a bad thing. The relative balance / performance of the planes may need some work, but I think the basic idea is good. I might turn my attention to an Experimental Air Combat / Geoscape balance patch at some point like I did for the Ground Combat too.

[StellarRat]

The problem with Jackal is that it has the same weight as Wolf also. It would have a role if it was a lighter suit of armour that you can assign to soldiers not strong enough for Wolf.

But they are equally heavy, and Wolf is so much better, and can be there for the first Corvettes....Maybe the Foxtrot would be more fun if it had 2 torpedo-only and 2 missile-only slots? It would still be weak vs. small ships due to no gun or dodging ability, but it could still contribute with light missiles to fights vs. escorts.

Let me preface by saying I'm playing on Veteran, build 21 v 1 per Chris' request we use that as our "measuring stick".

As far as I'm concerned Jackal is completely useless. I'm kicking myself for even building one suit. By the time you have Jackal researched and a few suits built the aliens are already toting plasma rifles and I've even seen a few Harridans with sniper guns and Seb's on the field with plasma cannons. Jackal does zero against anything but level 1 (aka plasma pistols) alien weapons. This goes back to my comment about the alien progression being too fast now. By the time you have it, it's too late to do any good. You're better off wearing no armor and carrying the heaviest weapons you can manage. If Jackal is truly to have any role on the battlefield it either needs to be a lot lighter, faster to build, and cheaper OR the aliens need to use pistols a lot longer.

As far as the various planes go...IMO the Foxtrot ought to have more missiles as Solver suggested and maybe even a cannon or removeable cannon pod(s). It already has the MAJOR weakness of not being able to dodge incoming fire and being not nearly as manueverable as the Condor.

The Corsair needs something (more firepower?). The Corsair is the "Jackal" of aircraft, IMO. Expensive, lots of research for very little return. It also takes forever to repair if damaged. Some ideas, better cannon (higher ROF with more ammo?), three or four light missile slots, something. I would say better dodging, but that doesn't really seem enough to me. The speed and range are good already IMO. Anyway, it really doesn't seem like much of an upgrade considering the costs. Another idea, alien tech based light missiles that have more range and can only be carried by high tech Xenonaut craft starting with the Corsair.

Edited January 13, 2014 by StellarRat

[Korgath]

Maybe you could have the corsair have heavy missiles and the cannon or give it the ability to perform rolls quicker than the condor can?

Foxtrots are usable for a long time but they have limitations. I do have one problem with them though in that they have no issues taking stuff down using autoresolve when in manual combat they would never manage it. I don't know what criteria you're using for the autoresolve feature but it doesn't match up with what is possible in manual combat and once I've reloaded a save a few times vs different craft I know that between using manual and autoresolve I can get away quite easily without needing to upgrade anything until I get Marauders.

The problem is that if you can do with Foxtrots + Condors until you finish researching the Marauder then there's never any need to build Corsairs because you're going to want to upgrade them to Marauders themselves anyway. There needs to be a strong need for the Corsair, either having more ammo to do additional sorties or the ability to avoid damage that the condor cannot. It either has to do something the Condor cannot or it needs to be useful for longer which would be a more fundamental change but I'll expand on in the next paragraph.

To make the game 'longer' and give further incentive for progressive upgrades rather than shooting straight for the 'ultimate' version of anything you could increase research time and make the alien progression take longer also. If you doubled the man hours needed on research and then doubled the amount of time it takes the aliens to progress then you would have a situation where you do more ground missions with tech before you get around to upgrading it. It would make the game take a bit longer but it would offer the chance to make intermediate technology more useful and worthwhile to produce. [You could still skip certain tech if you wanted to ultimately but at least if you decided not to you would get more use from the intermediate stuff]

Edited January 13, 2014 by Korgath