V20 Experimental Balance Patch 2 Available!

[Dranak]

@smoitessier - There's a bug where Seb guards don't have weapons. Check page 2 of this thread for how to fix it.

[Moonie]

Very easy and very quick fix to the problem of weaponless guard Sebillians. If you open aiprops, and go to the Sebillian section, you'll notice in the Guard entry the Reflexes stat isn't properly enclosed. If you fix that, it should give you weaponised Sebbies (there's another reflexes stat that also needs fixing in the Sebbie section as well).

Where exactly is this file please?

[Skitso]

I actually like this balance patch a lot, though aliens still seem a bit too accurate. Otherwise, great work Chris!

About the new reaction system: When I read about the original game's reaction system from the link Chris posted in the OP, I had an impression that the reaction fire phase shoud continue as long as it's participants have reaction time left. So in certain situations there could be longer shot exchanges. Have I misunderstood the system or is it not working like it shoud, for I havn't got anything like that at least for now...

[Sentelin]

Where exactly is this file please?

Go to install directory>Assets and look for airprops.xml

In there look under Sebillians for "Guard" and "Soldier Support" both of those have incorrectly enclosed Reflexes props.

[Moonie]

Strange first mission. Only 1 alien and no body to the spaceship only a door parked in the middle of a field, when I opened the door the interior was revealed but still no outer shell.

Go to install directory>Assets and look for airprops.xml

In there look under Sebillians for "Guard" and "Soldier Support" both of those have incorrectly enclosed Reflexes props.

Thank you. When I checked the file it looks to have already been fixed.

[Max_Caine]

Well, after more playing, I have to say the reflex stat has suddenly become a LOT more important. I now always lead a breach with the highest reflex statted of my soliders, which gives me a chance to get in, fling a flashbang or two, or pop smoke, or do anything and not get fried straight away. One thing I have ben doing is having two high relfex statted soliders, have one go one, perform an action, then have the next go in and perform an action. That way I can squeeze the most actions out of my troops before the defending aliens get a chance to shoot.

[Chris]

Thanks for the heads-up on the fix, Max. I've updated the file archive to include the fixes (did that last night but forgot to post about it). Sebillians at least should now have guns again.

Remember that this balance patch doesn't really extend beyond Scouts - it's intended just to test the ideas. If they're good, we'll put them in the main builds and extend them out through the rest of the game.

Regarding the instability - it probably is linked to the new reaction fire code, as it's just experimental code GJ did quickly rather than proper code done by the ground combat coder who understands all the systems that plug into it. So it doesn't surprise me that it causes crashes, it's just intended to see how it affects the game. When properly implemented it should work fine (I hope).

Myself, I found it didn't affect things that much....although I wasn't using it consciously like Max was. How has everyone else found it?

[Chris]

Also, thoughts on the way weapons change your initiative score both offensively and defensively?

I didn't like it at first, but having soldiers carrying pistols and shotguns etc being more resistant to reaction fire is actually quite interesting. It gives the weapons an advantage that they wouldn't otherwise have....so scouting with a pistol would actually be a good idea, for instance. We'd need to do something about heavy weapons like MGs and RLs effectively giving their user 0 Initiative at all times though....or do we?

[smoitessier]

@smoitessier - There's a bug where Seb guards don't have weapons. Check page 2 of this thread for how to fix it.

Yeah I had gone in to manually close the 2 reflex tags in the airprop.xml beforehand, so they both had plasma rifles, i'm wondering if it's not related to another tag (something about engagement distance in the airprop as well, it's set to 14 i think)

[Moonie]

Second mission and I found the game play to be very good, something about it now gives it that alive feeling.

One thing to remember is that if a soldier get's 'one shoted' then you can't heal him/her. And one of the fun things about the game is getting a medic to the injured soldier before they bleed to death.

[Ol' Stinky]

Also, thoughts on the way weapons change your initiative score both offensively and defensively?

I didn't like it at first, but having soldiers carrying pistols and shotguns etc being more resistant to reaction fire is actually quite interesting. It gives the weapons an advantage that they wouldn't otherwise have....so scouting with a pistol would actually be a good idea, for instance. We'd need to do something about heavy weapons like MGs and RLs effectively giving their user 0 Initiative at all times though....or do we?

I'm for it. It makes sense to me that weapons for CQC are better at CQC. And if anyone's scouting with the RL, they deserve that reaction shot coming their way. Also, like Max, I now actually look at soldiers' reaction scores and make the best ones my scouts. Before this, I considered it a fluff stat.

My question: what happens if a pistol guy's carrying C4? A pistol is x2 while C4 is... x0. Is C4 reaction fire mod only there in the code to look pretty or will it wipe out a soldier's initiative?

Have I missed something, by the way? I went into the game to try out the C4 thing, but I can't see my exp. version saves. Was there an update pushed out over Steam?

Edited January 8, 2014 by Ol' Stinky

[Max_Caine]

The only concern I have about evading reaction fire is like CS-GO, you switch to knife to get high speed, then flick back when speed isn't needed. So when breaching, you have the pistol in-hand to execute the breach, then flick over to a better weapon to carry out the attack. I think switching items is going to have to be more costly to discourage this kind of exploit.

EDIT: Let's take a situation I had recently. Breaching a scout, I happen to have a guy with 70 reflexes (thank you RNG gods!), and 59 APs. I have him start with a pistol, so he's at initative 140 when he goes in. Another of my troops opens the door, and my 70's guy moves in. I'm facing Caesans, so their reflexes are 50 in comparison - even with pistols they are still init 100. My solider is the Flash, speeding past them to best position (9 APs), he then whips out his assault rifle (10 APs) and even though he's dropped below the noncoms init, because he took his action above their init, they don't get to respond until he take a shot with his rifle. Which he does, and splats a noncom (lucky shot).

Edited January 8, 2014 by Max_Caine

[llunak]

I think switching items is going to have to be more costly to discourage this kind of exploit.

Or it could trigger reaction fire. After all, if you walk up to the UFO door and then start fumbling for that flashbang, you should make an easy target for a moment .

[Ol' Stinky]

The only concern I have about evading reaction fire is like CS-GO, you switch to knife to get high speed, then flick back when speed isn't needed. So when breaching, you have the pistol in-hand to execute the breach, then flick over to a better weapon to carry out the attack. I think switching items is going to have to be more costly to discourage this kind of exploit.

Would you need to do that though? When breaching, if I can't/don't want to use smoke, I have the shield guys go in and suppress w/flashbangs, and then everyone else pours in for all the fun, or snipe all the aliens if it's got a ground floor landing ship-type layout.

[llunak]

Would you need to do that though? When breaching' date=' if I can't/don't want to use smoke, I have the shield guys go in and suppress w/flashbangs, and then everyone else pours in for all the fun, or snipe all the aliens if it's got a ground floor landing ship-type layout.[/quote']

This is not only about breaching. If having a pistol in hand helps in avoiding reaction fire, it's quite an obvious exploit to have everybody run around the map with one in hand and switch to something else when spotting an alien (that might otherwise already have taken a reaction shot).

[llunak]

By the way, could these changes mean also that opening door would (=could) trigger reaction fire? I think this system would make it more fair, and the open-unload-close cycle feels like an awfully cheap exploit.

[Chris]

Opening doors does already trigger reaction fire afaik.

[Alexey]

It is logical if small arms provide less chances for taking reaction fire and increase chances for making reaction shot, as small arms are fast and easy to operate. And heavy guns (SR, MG, RL) are bigger and cumbersome, making units easier for taking fire and more difficuilt for reaction. Small arm isncrease reaction/initiative, big guns decrease.

And if you run with small arm and change to something bigger when spotting enemy, this should be considered an action with a penalty of gun you are changing to, thus triggering initiative/reaction check/shot right after you change to new weapon...

[Ashery]

This is not only about breaching. If having a pistol in hand helps in avoiding reaction fire, it's quite an obvious exploit to have everybody run around the map with one in hand and switch to something else when spotting an alien (that might otherwise already have taken a reaction shot).

Easiest way would be for weapon switching to trigger reaction fire after the action is taken. Or, better yet, take the scores both before and after the weapon switch and take the lowest of those two values and use that for judging reaction fire. So if you're switching from a rocket launcher to a pistol, you won't be lightning quick in putting the rocket launcher away.

Can't really suggest the easiest way to approach that without knowing all the intricacies of how the whole setup is designed.

That said, I've noticed two bugs, once of which has been mentioned:

Light scouts often don't have a sprite; there's just a door and a black blob, but once I open the door the inside looks normal. I initially thought that it may have been due to the craft's footprint not being entirely on the map, but I'd need to see the bug again and compare it to how it should properly look.

The second was on an arctic map, when my troops were deposited sans dropship. That is to say, all eight of'em were unceremoniously dropped on the corner of the map...which just so happened to be right next to the downed scout. Not quite sure how that happened, but I never saw it in my prior games (Then again, arctic maps aren't exactly common).

[Chris]

Yeah, I've fixed up a bunch of my maps. For some reason I'd been pretty careless with the placement of the UFOs and they were partly off the map in some cases. The next version of my balance patch will have them fixed.

Regarding the weapon switching, you wouldn't need a specific reaction "check" for it. If it consumes enough TUs to lower the soldier's Initiative to below that of the aliens watching him, they'll get to reaction fire. The fact that you don't have to think of every exception to the normal rules is one of the reasons why the updated system is quite elegant.

EDIT: a bit of testing suggests the inventory system TU cost actually doesn't work as intended right now.

[llunak]

Opening doors does already trigger reaction fire afaik.

Not for me. If you try the save game from http://ge.tt/9zoOO8D1/v/0 and walk up Leonid Korsak to the door and open it, he won't be fired upon. He has only 44 reflexes, which is not much, and had only 19TU left after opening the door, rendering him unable to fire.

Moreover, setting up this save showed how exploitable it is that aliens end their turn facing the nearest opponent. If I move the other soldier close to the ship from a side, opening the door is as safe as it can be.

[Solver]

Any luck with stability? I'm consistently getting a freeze per mission more or less.

[smoitessier]

Are we supposed to turn off auto updates in steam when testing this balance patch?

[Solver]

Steam won't overwrite the files until there's an actual update pushed by the devs, so it's safe to leave auto-update enabled.

[smoitessier]

Thanks,

Opening doors does already trigger reaction fire afaik.

I've never had reaction fire opening doors, maybe because i use a 3rd soldier to open it from the side, is it still supposed to be triggered that way?