V20 Experimental Balance Patch 1 Available!

[Chris]

Please bear in mind I've only given the updated accuracy values to the ballistic weapons, not the lasers. They are still using the old V20 values for accuracy.

UFO doors now stay open once they've been opened once, either by aliens or humans. Most likely the AI spawning inside the UFO and then going outside, or just checking on its friends periodically

@Vaelius - all the damage in the game has a 50%-150% random damage chance, so you were probably unlucky with the shotgun shot and scored a low number. In most cases it would have killed a guard or a non-combatant alien from one square away. Glad you're enjoying it anyway!

[RuskiVolkov]

I very much enjoy the changes. The only two things problems I have are my soldiers are still showing up in the 50-60 ranges in stats (though aliens are incredibly dangerous and movement costs 3 tu so i know its working properly) and allied combat AI. Maybe I did something wrong but man the friendly AI now kicks ass. v20 stable they just hid inside buildings with civilians. Now I land and hear gunshots throughout the game only to find aliens dead everywhere. Xenonauts just arrive to take the credit and the rewards.

In my first light scout crash I had two cops/security guards, one with shotgun and the other with handgun, kill 4 out of the 5 surviving Ceasans. I almost started writing a script for some sort of x-com/buddy cop movie but quickly grew bored with the idea.

I don't see too much of a problem with alien accuracy, though I can understand why people would want a (preferably slight) change to non-com accuracy. I agree with Chris on non-coms being so deadly, as well as the in-game lore. Caesans eyes and heads are designed to see a lot and to help them be accurate, their weapons are incredibly powerful. It would make sense that a naturally accurate creature with an incredibly powerful weapon regardless of it's 'job' could do a lot of damage.

I would like to see some more variance in the aim modes again. And maybe a buff to burst fire. During v20 stable and this patch I find burst fire to be terrible. 40 tu (now 35) to use it, I rarely suppress anything (i'm talking rifles here), even at close range I find my rounds hitting at the alien's feet, and I'm out three bullets. I can fire 2 20tu shots and have a good chance of hitting and even killing the target. It takes 1 turn, it uses 2 bullets. Or I can instead use a burst. 35tu, 3 bullets, low accuracy, so I most likely won't hurt the target, and (from personal experience) I have a low chance to suppress. If this is the way rifle burst fire is supposed to work that's fine but then my question then is why have it at all if firing two single shots per turn is better most of the time?

[RuskiVolkov]

Just realized I haven't switched over to the hotfix for the stable version. This might be what is causing my rambo police officers and security guards, though no idea how.

[Mordobb]

I like it but maybe this is more near Insane than normal if you understand my meaning. Hard core will like it...newby and casual will bleed their will to play with as the soldiers dies.

Have fixed % accuracy display in this version ? i was tired of missing with above 100% to hit shots.

[Mordobb]

Althought i would agree that non combatant need to be less effective. i m far more stressed with the medium to long range accuracy of the Sebillian that goes agaisnt their lore.

Either change the lore or lower theyr medium to long accuracy.

If possible one day i would like to see them go K1 when close as lore said, and not pewpewing.

[Ol' Stinky]

I've tried out a few missions now, and I prefer it to standard v20 so far. In my first mission I lost three soldiers! And not all to reaction fire either, one Caesan guard was hiding in a building and popped out to say hello. Good stuff. I agree with others that aim modes don't seem as significant. I suppose you could revert the accuracy stats or put in some other incentive, like less random damage or something, but to be honest I don't find it to be that much of a problem. I can use snap shot without feeling bad.

The lowered TU costs mean my guys are much better at moving around; in my second mission, I suppressed a Seb guard in a barn and flanked him successfully, which was cool. It would have been a lot more fiddly in standard v20, with team rookie wheezing and gasping from the effort. If nothing else comes from this experiment, please keep the 3 TU move costs.

[Myrmuzduur]

Also, a US Marine who has a desk job would be able to take just as many bullets as one assigned to combat duties (and probably wouldn't be a significantly worse shot either, having still gone through training). Non-com doesn't mean "civilian", it means not assigned to combat duties. Why should the aliens be different?

So a non-cpmbatant alien is actually a combatant alien who.... got different equipment? Is that it?

My impression of them was that they were alien civilians, or Engineers, Navigators, Pilots or some other kind of technician/specialist. In which case, no, they wouldn't have the same level of training or ability as proper, dedicated soldiers.

[Moonie]

I am torn to if I should install this or not. I am more the casual player and very happy with the game so far. So don't think it would help if I was forced to rage quit.

Decisions, decisions.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Moonie

[Max_Caine]

Having played the patch for a while now, can I ask that shields please, please, please, please, pretty please with icing, sprinkles and a cherry on top have a 100% chance of stopping a shot in front of them as opposed to the current percentage.

A shieldbearer has to take risks. They can't hang back like riflemen can - their choice of weaponry is all extremely short ranged (unless you have a particularly strong sheildbearer who can carry a shield plus a rifle and has the APs to swap). The shield is supposed to mitigate risk by being able to block a certain amount of damage, but all too often (it seems to me) the RNG gods laugh and lets plasma slip past. I've stopped using shieldbearers because the risk is not worth the reward. Every 1 in 5 shots will pass through, and with alien weapons so deadly in the patch, that shot that slips past will always kill the shieldbearer. No thanks! I'll retire shields and stick with rifles, please.

[Ol' Stinky]

So a non-cpmbatant alien is actually a combatant alien who.... got different equipment? Is that it?

My impression of them was that they were alien civilians, or Engineers, Navigators, Pilots or some other kind of technician/specialist. In which case, no, they wouldn't have the same level of training or ability as proper, dedicated soldiers.

It's not really a problem because non-coms are now relegated to defending the UFO. You don't see Dave the alien accountant running around the battlefield doing somersaults and scoring sick mid-air headshots. Also, you downplay the importance of having different weaponry, since plasma pistols don't hit nearly as hard as a plasma rifle.

Having played the patch for a while now, can I ask that shields please, please, please, please, pretty please with icing, sprinkles and a cherry on top have a 100% chance of stopping a shot in front of them as opposed to the current percentage.

A shieldbearer has to take risks. They can't hang back like riflemen can - their choice of weaponry is all extremely short ranged (unless you have a particularly strong sheildbearer who can carry a shield plus a rifle and has the APs to swap). The shield is supposed to mitigate risk by being able to block a certain amount of damage, but all too often (it seems to me) the RNG gods laugh and lets plasma slip past. I've stopped using shieldbearers because the risk is not worth the reward. Every 1 in 5 shots will pass through, and with alien weapons so deadly in the patch, that shot that slips past will always kill the shieldbearer. No thanks! I'll retire shields and stick with rifles, please.

Also, it can be tricky to get the 45 degrees needed for the 80% stopping chance, because there's no way to sidestep. I suspect that even when I go around the corner diagonally I'm putting myself in the 60% zone for some possible reaction shots. This is mitigated by smoke, sure, but are we meant to use smoke every time we round a corner? (That's not a rhetorical question.)

Edited January 7, 2014 by Ol' Stinky

[Chris]

Thanks for the ongoing feedback, guys. Some ideas for Experimental Balance Patch 2 are taking shape.

One thing nobody has mentioned yet that I'd be interested to know about is the new Light Scout maps - these are 10-20% smaller than before and have roughly twice as much cover in them as normal maps. Are they an improvement?

Regarding non-combatants, I always viewed them as soldiers that had been assigned to non-combat duties, for instance piloting or navigation etc. Their stats aren't as good as basic guards, but they're not substantially worse either. The previous incarnation of non-combatants had "civilian" stats with roughly half the accuracy and much less hitpoints than the guards...but any soldier who had gone through basic (or been cloned for war) would be at least reasonably competent with a weapon, even if they're not quite as good as a frontline soldier. And it's really not worth putting enemies in the game that aren't dangerous, as they present no challenge to the player.

[Dead Dread]

Well I've found a way to be successful but i dont really like the gameplay it produces, Smoke Everywhere. Reaction fire is Sooo deadly that I smoke always then advance and wait for it to clear.. doubt this is intended gameplay but its relatively safe and works. the lowered movement cost is completely wasted as I dont dare move anywhere near that far. Havnt played through very far but im wondering how badly losing soldiers will affect finances once my units have some armour and lasers.

[EDIT] & yes I do remember smoking the exit ramp in the OG but was hoping to leave that in the past.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Dead Dread

[Ol' Stinky]

Well I've found a way to be successful but i dont really like the gameplay it produces, Smoke Everywhere. Reaction fire is Sooo deadly that I smoke always then advance and wait for it to clear.. doubt this is intended gameplay but its relatively safe and works. the lowered movement cost is completely wasted as I dont dare move anywhere near that far. Havnt played through very far but im wondering how badly losing soldiers will affect finances once my units have some armour and lasers.

[EDIT] & yes I do remember smoking the exit ramp in the OG but was hoping to leave that in the past.

It's quicker to suppress them and move in and out of the smoke, or use grenades once you get non-lethal ones, but yeah, smoke's very powerful. If an AI can see smoke but no Xenonauts, it should fire at the centre of the cloud to suppress anyone inside. Given that you're not fighting many guards at once, suppression power on some alien weapons' burst modes might need to be bumped up.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Ol' Stinky

[Solver]

Smoke is definitely king now, too much so. With alien sight range also being greater, advancing is only really possible with shield guys, anyone else gets wasted (and even the shield guys are in danger). This means you have to smoke pretty much every open area to advance, which is maybe a bit too much.

Regarding the maps, I like them. Variety is good always, and this new small map with lots of cover type feels like a nice change. It's good for the decreased alien numbers.

[Solver]

Smoke is definitely king now, too much so. With alien sight range also being greater, advancing is only really possible with shield guys, anyone else gets wasted (and even the shield guys are in danger). This means you have to smoke pretty much every open area to advance, which is maybe a bit too much.

Regarding the maps, I like them. Variety is good always, and this new small map with lots of cover type feels like a nice change. It's good for the decreased alien numbers.

[Alturys]

My feedback after 3 light scout mission:

- TU change: Great change, more tactical options, faster game. I like it

- Weapon Accuracy change: Not very good. Snap shot is king now wich is not logical.

- Cover 75%. Good change, avoid endless fights with 10/15% precision.

- Soldier stat: I love it. Each soldier feel unique now. It add a lot of tactical change: preserving good soldiers, give a shield and scout with bad one ^^

- Light scout map: Good change also.

I love the way aliens are much precise now. However, as stated by other poster, i also think that reaction shot is too deadly.

My suggestion for the next builds:

- Lower snap shot precision. Higher normal and aimed.

- Lower reaction shoot precision a little bit.

- Each alien species should have his personality. Seb and Ceasan are in a good shape, they have very distinct caracteristic, they do not seem to be the same generic AI. I would like to see this kind of stuff for other species.

[Max_Caine]

The light scout maps felt very enclosed, which is nice, but I kept getting a "have I seen this before?" vibe from them. One of the maps (a desert base map) very strongly resembles a larger scout map, right down to the way outer walls and random street props are positioned.

[Chris]

They are just Scout maps with a few tiles chopped off the edges and more cover added, so that's not entirely unexpected

Any thoughts on the gameplay, Max? I'll probably put out the second patch today.

[Solver]

Speaking of chopped off tiles. You know that map where you exit the dropship next to a barn with a red tractor, where the part with the UFO is behind hedges? The light scout UFO appears chopped off on that map. It's in the corner and only half the UFO is there, the other half is missing.

[Max_Caine]

On gameplay: My particular style of gameplay is to run squaddies from cover to cover, which sort-of works in the light scout maps. There's plenty of cover to run to, but because I scurry from spot to spot I do get caught out by reaction fire. As everyone else has already said, reaction fire is super nasty. I think it's because the default for reaction fire is the snap shot. Caesans and Sebbies have enough AP to get 2 snap shots off if they're in position and waiting and snap shots seem to be way more accurate than they have a right to be, for both humans and aliens. I believe there should be a strong difference between normal/aimed shot and snap shots, which would be a quickish way of making reaction fire less potent. Speaking of snap shots, I don't think I've ever seen an alien actually use a normal/aimed shot, but I'm guessing that's more an AI thing, not a balance thing.

On cover: I think you've got the balance about right, tbh. There's very little 50% cover, but 38-40% cover is pretty good regardless, and it's much less of a PITA when an alien is dug in.

On alien types: Now that you've put guards in the light scouts, the tech progression tree needs adjustment. Jackal armour still requires (as far as I can tell) plasma pistol tech, but you get both plasma rifles and plasma pistols. If it's your intention to keep guards and not have them as the next progressive step then I think it would be better to unlock Jackal armour with plasma pistol or plasma rifle tech, as both weapon types serve the same end.

On alien attitudes: Sebbies have LOTS of 'tude. I almost expect them to have scrawled gang graffiti on the walls of buildings. If possible, it would probably be better to have Caesans be the first encountered race, as they're the closest to humans, so they're the easiest to relate to and possibly the best "learning" race, as it were. Then you can lay the smackdown with Sebbies that get all up in yo' grill.

[Moonie]

Decided to give it a go.

The good news is that the game feels heart pounding now, and the aliens evil. The extra cover is a boon that helps the game flow really well.

The bad news is. The aliens opportunity fire is mad, way over the top, and strips the game of many tactical options, also normal Alien fire seemed, in most cases, to totally ignore solid cover.

I also don't like how virtually every alien shot is a crit:

Maybe these setting would be okay for a impossible difficulty.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Moonie

[ventuswings]

To be honest, some of the complaints about smoke is symptom of smoke grenade itself, not an higher accuracy. It's an really effective tool, and the fact that AI have no idea how to deal with it means that liberal use of smoke grenade is very effective strategy.

[Mutton]

To add to the whole smoke grenade thing I agree with something somebody has already said regarding how the enemy react to smokes and that is that the aliens should fire blindly into the smoke with the knowledge that a smoke wall can only exist because soldiers are in the area and if it's laid down it's probably a response to whatever you're currently doing so if your sitting there behind a fence and smoke comes up in front of you not doing anything until the smoke clears will almost certainly lead to you dieing.

Firing blindly doesn't have to be their only response though, they could move towards it in the hope of getting an opportunistic reaction shot on someone who comes out of it possibly with a greater good mentality i.e trying to kill anyone in the full knowledge he'll get shot down the moment the smoke clears but whilst it's up he may drop a few people or force the squad to rethink their plans or just entirely mess them up which could in turn help other nearby aliens to to enact their own plan.

Or they could do the opposite and retreat backwards not allowing the enemy a free kill and possibly meeting up with other aliens or just finding new and unexpected cover to suddenly ambush appoaching xenos from which would also work for them with regards to the xeno strength stats being re-done (so they can't equip so much of everything) meaning each smoke grenade seemingly wasted actually means at least a little something to the player.

And It'd be great if they did actually have a choice rather then having every alien always do one of those things though maybe it's wishful thinking, I have no idea about the difficulty involved in programming AI.

Whatever it is though I strongly think they need to take some sort of clear reaction towards smoke being thrown in their vicinity which is likely to blind fire into it (can the enemy force fire on tiles the way the player can I have no idea?), aggressively push forward or conservatively withdraw. Sitting there in overwatch is probably the worst thing they can do since people already expect/hope they'll do that and are putting that smoke in front of them the vast majority of the time as a hard counter to them doing just that.

I say I'd like to see these things and it'd probably equate to a game being so hard I'd smash my laptop but I think anything goes in the realms of difficulty (aside from straight up cheating by the cpu) when the game is set to it's hardest mode.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Mutton
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