Missing Features Ground Combat

[Gauddlike]

To build on what dakta said in his post, this is about immersion/realism. What you describe a "choice" and "weighing up the odds and building a squad that can deal with anything" others might see (and I do see) as a lack of depth and lack of choice. The end result is that you run the same squad layout regardless of mission type. The problem could actually be solved an entirely different way, by giving some intel (alien types, numbers, and terrain) to the Xcom before the mission is dispatched. In much the same way that people describe how they load differently for base assault or terror, the same could apply to landers/crashes, if sufficient info was given.

I haven't actually seen you point out a flaw in this suggestion. The only "flaw" I'm aware of is that it's not as simple to add as one might hope, due to the way inventory on the transport is handled. Aside from that, your argument seems to be that you don't care about this. That's not really a downside, as it wouldn't affect you a bit if it were implemented, unless to compensate the AI were tuned to be more difficult which made your "One Size Fits All" squad approach less desirable.

I don't run the same squad for each mission and I also don't use mules to carry extra gear.

I will probably stick on an extra grenade or maybe carry a rocket for another squad member if I feel it is necessary.

My industrial set up has more short/medium range weapons while a more open map, say middle east, tends to have more longer range options.

Some of my troops do carry two weapons but that is generally a sniper with an smg.

You get given the size of the ship which translates to crew size and the type of map which all tend to have a theme on how open or enclosed they are, that is plenty of information to make an educated choice on equipment.

Yes it would be nice to have access to which race you will be fighting but I imagine that will have to wait until the hyperwave decoder equivalent is available for that.

I have pointed out a fair few flaws with the system you just haven't seen them as flaws in the same way that the merits you have put forward seem more like flaws to me.

At the moment if someone chooses to break their own immersion by gaming the system and using mules then that is their own choice.

I don't do that and see no need for it so to carry that over I see no need for a new system to be added to justify their choice.

As you say at the end of your post (in a round about way) allowing the player access to the best option to defeat the encounters they will face decreases the difficulty of those encounters which I imagine is why some choose to load up mules with lots of different weapons.

The only 'merit' I am aware of is that it will allow a player to always have access to the ideal counter to an enemy and save them having to fight at a disadvantage.

I disagree that this is a good thing in a game about fighting superior troops with a tech advantage.

[dakta]

There's nothing realistic about soldiers carrying around a stack of extra weapons that they can't actually carry into combat. Despite what we see in video games, that isn't something that's actually done in the real world. I can not ever remember seeing any other soldier (conventional or SF) lugging around extra weapons inside their vehicle. Ammo is possible, but only if they expected to be fighting from their vehicles as ammo you don't have with you in a fight is useless.

You have terrain type and time of day handed to you pre-mission, and can make an educated guess about alien numbers and weaponry based on the class of UFO you downed. Those pieces of intel are enough to make certain reasonable adjustments; for example I bring more snipers in the desert than I do on industrial maps because on average they're better sat up for it.

I don't understand how "bring everything with you instead of choosing what to bring" makes for better gameplay than actually having to make a meaningful choice pre-mission.

I find it odd that you've never experience this but well this would be the line of thinking that I am familiar with. I will use 4 soldiers to ilustrate.

Soldier 1 sniper

Solider 2 rifleman

Soldier 3 heavy gun

Soldier 4 rifleman

They are all equipped with their gun and some ammo, now... I would like grenades and maybe a medkit on 2 of them.

Soldier 1 maxed weight

Soldier 2 80%

Soldier 3 maxed weight

Soldier 4 80%

Mmm I would like a rocket launcher but its too heavy and too situational, well I can put it on them, drop it at the beginning and if I need it run back to the ship.

Soldier 1 maxed Inventory

Soldier 2 maxed Inventory

Soldier 3 maxed Inventory

Soldier 4 80%

Mmm just in case I will carry a riot shield and a shotgun for when the time to breach an UFO comes since shotguns are stupid for any engagement outside the ufo.

And then I have 4 soldiers inventories maxed, and I have to inventory micromanage every time I start a mission, spending a turn just dropping stuff to the ground.

This is somewhat similar to what the actual reasoning in my ingame mission was, I had 3 mules and overloading was something I was considering necessary, extra nades, extra ammo, extra riot shield, etc.

So this is something that is already in the game... Its something that people will do, some to a lesser extent some to a higher extent. Considering the amount of missions I have to do per campaign, it feels FRUSTRATING.

That for me is the keyword for taking it seriously, the fact that I and others will see overloading as a necessity and that the payment for doing it is a bunch of my time doing frustrating tasks.

Anyway I hope I illustrated the point a bit more clearly, Its not just something people ask because they feel like it, I believe people ask for this because the alternative sucks.

[Gauddlike]

I understand that some people would like to see the feature and others don't.

I am not just against it because I don't think you have thought it through in fact you have shown your reasoning behind wanting it well.

For me if you choose to overload all of your troops to ensure you have the best gear available then that's your choice.

The weight limitation system is there for a reason and by using mules and overloading at the start you are trying to work around that system to gain an advantage.

If that causes you frustration then maybe working so hard to bypass the games systems is not a good idea.

[dakta]

I see this as a game design issue, its not working around the system since I can overload the troops. There is no cheating or modding involved.

The system just tells you that for every extra item you have to pay the TU cost, so the weight limitation is there not to prevent you from bringing as much stuff as you want, is there to prevent you from using them in the field at the same time.

When you are playing in the highest difficulty in ironman, you take any advantage that you can take to prevent losing the game. I would even argue that if you dont bring extra gear just in case, you are playing the game wrong. ALAS that is a personal opinion with little relevance here.

What is relevant is that your argument of the weight limitation has no bearing on the amount of things you can carry, it only applies to the amount of things you can use at the same time. The only limitation to what you can carry is the inventory space in soldiers.

So no we are not bypassing the system, we are playing within reason and it feels frustrating. Remember that not every gamer will play like you, good game design should prevent frustration from playing the game within reason. I really don't believe that being careful and taking extra gear is being unreasonable.

[Gauddlike]

Cheating and modding are not required to game the systems in place and use them outside of their intended function.

For example levelling stats is designed to be something that occurs naturally as you play but some people game the system by loading down troops and running laps of the chinook to gain maximum bonuses as early as possible.

The same applies to the weight and inventory system.

You can game it but you are operating outside of its intended function, if that causes you frustration then alter your playstyle rather than expecting the devs to change their vision of how their game should operate.

This whole thread is about personal opinions so I would suggest all are of equal relevance.

We have different opinions and they are unlikely to be changed as it looks like all of the arguments for both sides have been shared.

Guess we just have to agree to disagree and wait to see if the discussion has convinced the devs to change anything.

[kraex]

I have pointed out a fair few flaws with the system you just haven't seen them as flaws in the same way that the merits you have put forward seem more like flaws to me.

At the moment if someone chooses to break their own immersion by gaming the system and using mules then that is their own choice.

I don't do that and see no need for it so to carry that over I see no need for a new system to be added to justify their choice.

FYI, I have never mentioned mules. I don't use mules.

[mrsisk]

Wow.

Personally, I simply don't get the whole extra gear in the ship thing.

Granted, I play on Normal mode and have never made it too far into the game, but the weight issues start once you get Jackal armor. and don't get any worse, whereas the TU and STR of your troops tends to get better and better, thus making weight less and less of an issue.

Play the game as you want, but to me if you're going into a mission and immediately dropping gear and shuffling it around, then...dunno, sound to me like you're not doing it right. I don't see the point. If some people are carrying stuff for others then dropping it on the ground right away means whoever needs it has to pick it up--right?--which means maybe they should have been carrying it first. Or are you leaving it in the ship for later? In which case, having to run all the way back to the ship mid-mission is just a royal pain in the ass.

As pointed out, you know the size of the ship as soon as you spot it. You know the specific ship type once you're interceptors engage it. You know where it's gone down, and therefore the kind of terrain you're facing once it's shot down. And with later tech maybe you know the type of mission it was on, which will give you a big clue what kind of foes you're going after.

I don't see the problem.

I see each ground mission as a puzzle. I go into it equipped the best I think possible, and then I try to solve it. Having a bunch of gear on my transport to suit any occassion would seem like starting a jigsaw puzzle with 25 or 50 extra pieces so that if I came across a sticky patch, I'd have a piece that would fit whatever I run into.

So...yeah...just don't get it.

[dakta]

Wow.

Personally, I simply don't get the whole extra gear in the ship thing.

Granted, I play on Normal mode

So...yeah...just don't get it.

So in veteran terror missions have something between 25-32 aliens if memory serves me correct, also more often than not the alien tech will be slightly above yours. Once you hit mags things are back to easy. But when you have lasers and maybe 1-2 plasma, killing 2 big ass drones, 10 warrior androns a couple of officer level androns and a touch of office level harridans or caesan and a few small drones. You cant just pistol everyhing to death.

-Since you havent made it very far, Androns are robots that eat bullets for lunch and the higher the rank the worst it gets.

-Big ass drones are cadillac sized cdplayers that shoot fireballs in burst that send your troops to a magical place in the sky

-Harridans are supposed to be alien snipers but they are relatively passive and only sometimes the decide to throw a nade at you and instantly erase a soldier because you had too many soldiers for the mission

-And if you are in the lategame you also get the preators and well those take half of your TU pool from a bunch of your soldiers every turn and one shot anything regardless of what armor they have. Also you cant kill them, they just give up from boredom of your bullets doing nothing to them.

With improved dropships things become easier because you have some of the extra soldiers be 100% mules. But when you are still in midgame tech and you are raiding a base or fighting a terror mission with 8. Ammo will run out.

TL/DR: finish the game in veteran then maybe you will sympathize with the pledge

Edited January 8, 2014 by dakta

[Dranak]

I change my loadouts for terror missions, leaving behind all stun/suppression grenades, pistols, and shields and replacing them with more frag grenades, ammo, and rocket launchers. I've gotten very low on ammo, but I can only remember actually running out of ammo and having to start grabbing alien weapons once.

You should have upgraded dropships well before facing Praetors and late game enemies since they unlock around the same time as plasma weapons. That means you'll have at least 50% more troops (and thus ammo/weapons). If you're not upgrading your transports, then you're falling behind in the Geoscape and should be forced to struggle in the ground combat.

[mrsisk]

Also, I've seen it stated several places that terror missions haven't yet been properly balanced. So we can't really judge how these missions will be in the final game.

[Dead Dread]

Im doing those Veteran Andron Terror missions without lasers or plasma weapons, Its perfectly beatable... You NEED to use soldiers as packmules to carry all the spare rockets and C4 and nades. Liberal use of smoke is also required... the biggest problem is that you blow up all the goodies and dont make anywhere near the cash you should