Different types of shotgun ammo

[erutan]

I don't think Xenonauts are average homeowners...

[Tacobandit]

I don't think Xenonauts are average homeowners...

Some of them look like recruited rednecks.

[Chollirem]

Then you need to make that case to Chris.

Well once the new update comes out and i can play again, Im going to have to beta test my way up and see how all the weapons work t1 2 3 and 4.

Once I have a solid feel on game play in its current form I may find my argument a moot point lol

otherwise, ya I guess I'll shoot this to chris

[Buzzles]

I've played a number of games with multiple ammo types for most of the guns in them and I'm not wholly enamoured with the concept if I'm completely honest.

I tend to find it is much more preferable to take more of a standard ammo type than to take a mix of types as I commonly discover the others to be rather situational and often not worth the effort of swapping out when a couple of extra shots of the normal stuff will do.

In light of the fact Xenonauts doesn't have a "brick wall" type of armour system and that all shots, even from the lowest of pistols, will eventually cause enough damage to kill anything, the balance is skewed even more in favour of just taking more of one type of ammo rather than lots of different kinds.

I also generally find that games which go out of their way to force you to use specific ammo types in specific situations tend to be more frustrating than fun.

[erutan]

To play devils advocate I really enjoyed choosing between ammo types in JA2 (the majority of weapons just having normal, hollowpoint, and AP). In the beginning moving from standard to hollow made you do a lot more damage unless you were fighting elite soldiers with good armor - endgame you'd pretty much default on AP but hollow point was useful for creatures. You could also unload a burst of hollow point to knock the breath out of someone wearing armor if it came down to that. If you were dual wielding have the first pistol AP and second HP worked well mid-game.

Given that laser/plasma don't have ammo types I don't think the idea will really be necessary besides rocketish type weapons in Xeno, but implemented well it adds depth/fun.

[Gauddlike]

Wouldn't it just lead to you having to carry a full set of each ammo type in Xenonauts?

Or try to find out which race is flying the specific craft you want to attack, head back to the soldier screen, fill up on whatever they were weak against and only then launch the attack.

That is also part of the reason resistance based weapon balancing didn't really appeal.

If each race is strong against a different weapon then you either take everything, change your whole gear setup for each mission, or you take the single weapon that provides the best middle ground.

Not that I am against the possibility of multiple ammo types, they would make for a good mod.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Gauddlike

[StellarRat]

I said this before, but I guess I'll say it again just for fun and the newcomers: What is the point to using anything other than buckshot in the shotgun IN XENONAUTS? If you use slugs it is nothing more than an inaccurate, short ranged rifle so why not take a sniper rifle or AR? In the 70's where the game is set shotguns really only used buckshot, birdshot and slugs. All those fancy baton rounds, sandbags, etc... came later. I can't see any reason to have the shotgun in the game unless it uses buckshot. It should be deadly close range weapon against unarmored targets. That would make it distinctly different than the rifles and other weapons. Using slugs just turns it into another rifle and a crappy one at that.

[Gauddlike]

Does it matter what the projectile name tag says it is if it has that effect?

It is a high damage weapon with short range at the moment so seems to fit your suggested requirements.

Maybe the armour mitigation could be tweaked down a little if you feel it should be poor against armour.

The only thing different is that the projectile animation used is a single image with no dispersal.

However plenty of people seem to feel that there would be limited dispersal anyway at these ranges.

Maybe the only thing that needs to be changed is the word slug?

It is not all that similar to the assault rifle though.

It does nearly double the damage for slightly less AP and is actually more accurate at point blank range.

It cannot burst fire and has less aim steps than the AR though.

The shotgun is actually better against armour at the moment, it also has a reaction bonus so reaction fire will be more common over the AR.

Your assertion that it is a weaker version of the AR is only true if you try to use them both in the same role the assault rifle is designed for.

For breaching or fighting in enclosed spaces, like UFO interiors or base rooms, the shotgun may be a better choice.

How would any of this change if you replace slugs for shot?

Bearing in mind that IN XENONAUTS projectiles are all the same apart from the flag for the type of damage they do on impact and any ammunition type can be set to have any damage/armour penetrating properties you desire.

[erutan]

@stellar - at one point Chris said the engine had a problem with doing proper buckshot. Hopefully at some point they can at least get a 1 tile "bullet" that looks like a cloud of buckshot - earlier in the thread it was mentioned someone had a mod for that. When it comes to proper game balancing I'd imagine it'd have higher accuracy up close that rapidly drops off.

@gaud - it is a little silly to fire at close range and see the slug fly off into the distance, depending on your setup the spread could be very tight, but IMO having that spread is a big reason why you have increased accuracy w/ reaction / snapshot type shots.

I think a lot of the "zomg different shotgun ammo" sentiment would go away if it wasn't just locked into using a slug. I think Xeno is better off just having different ammo types for launcher type weapons, but hopefully shotguns can be made to appear more buckshotty.

Edited January 14, 2013 by erutan

[Tacobandit]

I said this before, but I guess I'll say it again just for fun and the newcomers: What is the point to using anything other than buckshot in the shotgun IN XENONAUTS? If you use slugs it is nothing more than an inaccurate, short ranged rifle so why not take a sniper rifle or AR? In the 70's where the game is set shotguns really only used buckshot, birdshot and slugs. All those fancy baton rounds, sandbags, etc... came later. I can't see any reason to have the shotgun in the game unless it uses buckshot. It should be deadly close range weapon against unarmored targets. That would make it distinctly different than the rifles and other weapons. Using slugs just turns it into another rifle and a crappy one at that.

Explosive slugs could have AoE. That's what I meant by different ammo. Not different types of bullets (AP, hollow point, FMJ) but bullets with different attributes (HE, Incendiary, maybe even highly expensive smart bullets). I don't give a crap about realism, the shotguns could shot rockets for all I care.

[StellarRat]

I'll try to reply to everyone at once here: Yes, calling it buckshot would help. I've already made a buckshot sprite that works. The shotgun ought to do sigificantly more damage against unarmored targets at closer ranges than it does now. Both the pistol and shotgun are currently "over-ranged". (The pistol is over-powered too.) The shotgun should fire slightly slower than the AR, currently it fires way too fast (low TUs.) Finally, the shotgun should hold less ammo and take very long time to reload which helps to balance out the high damage. If you want to try out what I think a shotgun ought to look like in game check out the "buckshot beta ready" thread in the mods forum.

Edited January 15, 2013 by StellarRat

[erutan]

Agreed on lowering capacity - low TUs are to incorporate "handling" as well as actual fire rate - and also in terms of game balance (e.g. a shotty soldier is going to need to spend more TUs on movement). I'd agree on upping damage (and accuracy up close then having it drop off dramatically) to have it stand out more as a CQB weapon... not sure if the game takes into account armor, but I imagine by the time you start hitting truly armored foes you'd be above conventional weapons anyways.

[StellarRat]

Agreed on lowering capacity - low TUs are to incorporate "handling" as well as actual fire rate - and also in terms of game balance (e.g. a shotty soldier is going to need to spend more TUs on movement). I'd agree on upping damage (and accuracy up close then having it drop off dramatically) to have it stand out more as a CQB weapon... not sure if the game takes into account armor, but I imagine by the time you start hitting truly armored foes you'd be above conventional weapons anyways.

My mod lowers the effective range to 6, increases the TUs to be slightly more than the AR, lowers the magazine capacity to 8, increase the reload time to 45 TUs, lowers the armor penetration to 4 (1 less than a pistol) and increases the damage to 60. It changes the weapon to an effective close combat weapon, but pretty much makes it worthless in the field. That's the way it should be IMO.

[Gauddlike]

@gaud - it is a little silly to fire at close range and see the slug fly off into the distance, depending on your setup the spread could be very tight, but IMO having that spread is a big reason why you have increased accuracy w/ reaction / snapshot type shots.

That happens with every weapon, how would you address that?

Even if you replace the graphic with a buckshot pattern as per the previously mentioned mod it would still travel until it hits or leaves the level.

The only real way to change that would be to add the mechanic for spreading pellets that are individually tracked, otherwise pellet graphics would spread and ignore targets as they are not actually present.

All because the word slug is less acceptable than the word buckshot?

Seems like a waste of time to me.

[Gauddlike]

I think most of these problems would go away if there was a little more adaptability in the weapon configs.

I have suggested this before elsewhere but I might put together a proper post some day.

If you could make the shotgun fire say eight shots as a burst, with no delay (so all fire simultaneously) while using a single unit of ammunition and having poor individual damage and accuracy but a narrow miss deviation then you have the sort of effect you might be looking for.

[StellarRat]

That happens with every weapon, how would you address that?

Even if you replace the graphic with a buckshot pattern as per the previously mentioned mod it would still travel until it hits or leaves the level.

The only real way to change that would be to add the mechanic for spreading pellets that are individually tracked, otherwise pellet graphics would spread and ignore targets as they are not actually present.

All because the word slug is less acceptable than the word buckshot?

Seems like a waste of time to me.

I think I stated previously that the "spread" of buckshot is much less than most people think. It would need to travel 150 yards to even cover ONE tile. Hence, there is really no reason to even bother simulating the "spread". A single sprite is sufficient, IMO. Basically, I have serious doubts that any of our maps is big enough for this to be an issue particularly since it is rare for a shot to cross a map completely and be visible the whole time.

[Gauddlike]

I was replying to the post that said it was silly to show the projectile and that the spread was important.

I doubt everyone would be happy no matter which way it was done.

For me it makes no difference whether it is called a slug or shot, as long as the weapon is balanced and fits into a role.

I doubt I will be using the shotgun once the laser carbine is available anyway so all of the focus on this individual weapon has little interest beyond balancing.

[StellarRat]

I was replying to the post that said it was silly to show the projectile and that the spread was important.

I doubt everyone would be happy no matter which way it was done.

For me it makes no difference whether it is called a slug or shot, as long as the weapon is balanced and fits into a role.

I doubt I will be using the shotgun once the laser carbine is available anyway so all of the focus on this individual weapon has little interest beyond balancing.

That's probably true. I'm really anxious to see the full line of weapons and aliens so I can get my head around the big picture.