[Weapon] High Explosive

[Beagle]

This is a quick, easy one. X-Com: EU has High Explosive charges which are very useful in their role. Even though you can't breach UFO outer walls with them, they do everything else you'd imagine that kind of equipment should including building breaching, demolitions, and a close-range weapon in desperate times versus tough enemies like Cyberdisks, kinda like throwing sticky bombs at tanks. Their short max-throwing distance coupled with their double inventory size and higher weight stops them from just being a bigger grenade.

I noticed that no form of High Explosives appear to exist in Xenonauts currently and the lack of a timer function on any grenades, which is important for HE charges due to their short range, made me wonder if they were planned at all. Are you planning on giving us the option of High Explosives in Xenonauts and if not, why?

[anotherdevil]

There will be HE charges. And possibly welding kits for breaching UFOs as well

[Beagle]

And possibly welding kits for breaching UFOs as well

That would be fantastic.

[TheTuninator]

Great to hear! I do miss my HE.

On the subject of welding charges; I'm actually a bit ambivalent toward that, as it's one more tool to make breaching a UFO (arguably one of the most harrowing parts of X-COM tactical combat) even easier. On top of things like riot shields and stun grenades, this could potentially snowball together to make early-game breaching operations a bit too easy.

If the alien AI is smart enough to have the aliens react to breaching attempts and redeploy accordingly, that's fine, but otherwise I think hull-breaching tech might be better kept at the higher tiers; breaching a UFO should be terrifying and punishingly difficult.

Edited January 28, 2012 by TheTuninator

[cyllan]

Great to hear! I do miss my HE.

On the subject of welding charges; I'm actually a bit ambivalent toward that, as it's one more tool to make breaching a UFO (arguably one of the most harrowing parts of X-COM tactical combat) even easier. On top of things like riot shields and stun grenades, this could potentially snowball together to make early-game breaching operations a bit too easy.

If the alien AI is smart enough to have the aliens react to breaching attempts and redeploy accordingly, that's fine, but otherwise I think hull-breaching tech might be better kept at the higher tiers; breaching a UFO should be terrifying and punishingly difficult.

wether breaching is implemented or not, if the aliens "know" "magically" the location of all your soldiers......... aka "cheating", you are going to find the aliens waiting for you with reaction fire..... like xcom, a lot of times i opened the door and the 2 first soldiers dead by reaction fire, you end up luring them outside with proximity grenades, till the ship is half empty and putting soldiers all around the ufo to act as decoys for when you breach/enter ship...... that was my playstyle in xcom and ufo AI

[Beagle]

wether breaching is implemented or not, if the aliens "know" "magically" the location of all your soldiers......... aka "cheating", you are going to find the aliens waiting for you with reaction fire..... like xcom, a lot of times i opened the door and the 2 first soldiers dead by reaction fire, you end up luring them outside with proximity grenades, till the ship is half empty and putting soldiers all around the ufo to act as decoys for when you breach/enter ship...... that was my playstyle in xcom and ufo AI

It's not really cheating to let the aliens know that there is a loud and noticeable noise of blowtorching on the outside of their UFO and watch that direction accordingly, from a gameplay perspective or a logical perspective. Making additional entrances would still be useful even if the aliens could recognize them.

[Gauddlike]

Yeah as long as the aliens don't ignore you walking in through the new back door you have made it shouldn't be a problem.

It might not be a quick process either to balance out the ease of avoiding the door.

[TheTuninator]

Yeah, I find the idea intriguing but I think it's something that will have to be very carefully examined to ensure that it doesn't combine with equipment like the riot shield too well, and in doing so remove some of the fear of boarding a UFO.

I trust Chris and the team, though, so I look forward to seeing how it plays out in-game.

[cyllan]

"a loud and noticeable noise of blowtorching "

?, blowtorching is done to be near silent and a surprise element , otherwise why bother at all breaching?

[Beagle]

Call it some kind of in-built sensor systems in the wall or a reaction between blowtorching whatever the UFO walls are made of. I don't think we have to ask for too much suspension of disbelief to explain how aliens would notice it, the point of which is to try and balance out the breaching mechanic.

[TheTuninator]

"a loud and noticeable noise of blowtorching "

?, blowtorching is done to be near silent and a surprise element , otherwise why bother at all breaching?

It's a spaceship; they are guaranteed to have sensors which alert them to a breach in the hull. That would be, y'know, kind of a big deal in space.

In any case, there needs to be some drawback to breaching at an early level, or it will severely impact the tension of the game.

[plucx]

Depends, When you are openning a wall somewhere, you make a door where YOU want it to be. It's taking control of the situation instead of getting in a bad tactical situation. Also, you don't have to get in where you made the hole.

Let's say you open the wall, you step asside while a buddy throw a grenade in, then put a fire in there. So if' it survived the bomb it's now on fire (yet, fire is a good tool against happy campers) you get light inside and you can now enter from the front door sincie it's now divided in between the breach and the main door. Also, what stop you to take a shortcut to the command center that way? It's a great tool. Either from the outside in, than the inside out!

[cyllan]

it all depends on the AI and how aliens communicate, the experince i have with games is enemies cant hear/ see shit and charge at you blindly...., or they can see you all at all times......, i cant think of any games with "realistic" AI, AI is a frontier nobody has managed to crack, not even scientists doing robot projects........ , i guess it would be easier on games as there is no "face recognition" BUT i guess the ideal dinamic for AI would be -range comunications- assesment of threat- clever deployment avoiding tipical suicide runs/ ambushes, hit and run techiques.....and gung ho in case of superiority.

i feel sorry for the AI coder, he must have the hardest job in the project...... i wish him the best though

[TheTuninator]

Depends, When you are openning a wall somewhere, you make a door where YOU want it to be. It's taking control of the situation instead of getting in a bad tactical situation. Also, you don't have to get in where you made the hole.

Let's say you open the wall, you step asside while a buddy throw a grenade in, then put a fire in there. So if' it survived the bomb it's now on fire (yet, fire is a good tool against happy campers) you get light inside and you can now enter from the front door sincie it's now divided in between the breach and the main door. Also, what stop you to take a shortcut to the command center that way? It's a great tool. Either from the outside in, than the inside out!

Right, but the problem is that it's such a great tool that it would be quite possible to make boarding a UFO too easy. Boarding UFOs should be a punishing and harrowing experience which demands extreme caution.

[KOKON]

Right, but the problem is that it's such a great tool that it would be quite possible to make boarding a UFO too easy. Boarding UFOs should be a punishing and harrowing experience which demands extreme caution.

Right. I can see a some suggestions aiming to fix the pain in the back that made xcom a good game.

- Grenades from the corner

- Breching ufo walls

The game is fun not because that it is possible to win it without saves and without any unwanted losses.

[plucx]

It wont stop me from using this same tactic on a regular door.

I did not ask to throw a grenade from a corner anyway (would be logical to have that) but why not Kokon. It's a sound idea.

Loosing your guy will happens because you will have to step in anyway.

Also, if you used such agressive tactics it was hard to get materials, parts and bodies. So no, it's not overpowered since grenades are a basic piece of gear in X-com. Especially with muton or crabmen around.

The welder just bring a nice touch of diversity in the game. It could be used as a close combat weapon that can pierce trough thick opponents. If it take a lot of time too, like a whole turn or two.

[KOKON]

plucx eventually i agree. Some things that making the game easier (and more relistic in this case) can be be overlaped with things that make it harder like a big alien with a long tongue that can suck up soldiers at the door.

p.s.: i like heavy explosive in xcom eu variant

it all depends on the AI and how aliens communicate

well for tactical shooter like ja2 what you say is right.

For xenonauts it is ok for aliens to see the whole map all the time but pretend that they don't. Aliens must have a completely different thinking etc.

Edited January 29, 2012 by KOKON

[TheTuninator]

It wont stop me from using this same tactic on a regular door.

I did not ask to throw a grenade from a corner anyway (would be logical to have that) but why not Kokon. It's a sound idea.

Loosing your guy will happens because you will have to step in anyway.

Also, if you used such agressive tactics it was hard to get materials, parts and bodies. So no, it's not overpowered since grenades are a basic piece of gear in X-com. Especially with muton or crabmen around.

The welder just bring a nice touch of diversity in the game. It could be used as a close combat weapon that can pierce trough thick opponents. If it take a lot of time too, like a whole turn or two.

Grenades are a basic piece of gear, but you can't throw them into a UFO without having line of sight; it's what balances them.

Being able to open a UFO door from a corner without walking through is already a massive advantage for boarding; everything else will need to be carefully balanced to ensure it doesn't tip the scales too far in the Xenonauts' favor.

[plucx]

One of the thing I loved in X-com was the Blaster laucher. It's very powerfull, limited ammo and well, you had to know what you did or you would get blow to pieces. I used it mainly to get in UFO from several point at the same time. Especially usefull to get in the command center quickly. The drawback was it's own strenght. How do you salvage something if there is nothing left to savalge?

Maybe there could be breaching charges, or the welder has limited uses, like a gaz tank. Might be more balanced that way. Later on it could lead to other stuff. This could limit the abuse some fear, while giving a tactical edge on how you want to resolve the combat. Also, when ufo crash they have holes in them. A fusion torch is then less helpfull on a crash site than an landed ship but could be used on a bridge wall to get to the commander and flank him. HE are able to blow most inside walls anyway. Just messier.

[plucx]

Grenade need more than line of sight since they have an arc trajectory. I understand what you mean with the side door opening. It is a game changer, way more than TFTD where you could open door instead of just stepping trough.

While it might change a lot of things, it might balance itself out. Just because of the reaction units system. Let's say I open the door while standing in front of it. The door open, the aliens sees me, most of the time they wont fire at me in reaction since for them i'm at 0 TU spent in their line of sight. This give me a shot or a grenade throw chained from my partners or an autofire. As soon as this is resolved they are very likely to fire back, same if I move.

Now, let's say I open the door from the side. I then move in front of the door. Doing this I already spent a minimum of 8TU (standing, advance, rotate 2 quarters) it's enough for aliens to react and shot me into a pile of green goo.

The same is true if I leave the door open but did not clear the other side. They are likely to throw a grenade and wipe a good part of the team, take pot shot at them.

[Beagle]

I think small-AoE, high-damage breaching charges would be much more fun and active than a welding torch, particularly with a timer feature. Have them only damage the wall they're placed on but have that damage be high enough to bust the wall open reliably.

Maybe have some additional effects i.e. there are aliens right on the other side of the wall, in which case stun/damage/whatever them

[plucx]

It might not work properly to have a one square explosive because Wall tiles are present in on square but not the other around it. As such if you put the breach on the wrong side of the wall you intend to blow, it will not destroy the wall. Maybe a close attack pattern that enable targetting objects and tiles. I do like the explosive breaching charge idead. It would then need at least a 3X3 Hex pattern.

[TheTuninator]

One of the thing I loved in X-com was the Blaster laucher. It's very powerfull, limited ammo and well, you had to know what you did or you would get blow to pieces. I used it mainly to get in UFO from several point at the same time. Especially usefull to get in the command center quickly. The drawback was it's own strenght. How do you salvage something if there is nothing left to savalge?

Maybe there could be breaching charges, or the welder has limited uses, like a gaz tank. Might be more balanced that way. Later on it could lead to other stuff. This could limit the abuse some fear, while giving a tactical edge on how you want to resolve the combat. Also, when ufo crash they have holes in them. A fusion torch is then less helpfull on a crash site than an landed ship but could be used on a bridge wall to get to the commander and flank him. HE are able to blow most inside walls anyway. Just messier.

The difference is that the Blaster Launcher is high-level, end-game tech, and as such its ability to knock open a UFO is somewhat justified.

That's a whole world of difference from getting the ability to breach UFOs from close to the start of the game.

[Gorlom]

wouldnt you have to research the alien alloys and ships before you could make a breaching tool? I mean they withstand infinite number of rocket hits atm dont they?

BTW will we be able to research different capturd ships in xenonauts?

[anotherdevil]

That's a whole world of difference from getting the ability to breach UFOs from close to the start of the game.

Probably would need to research alien alloys, plus then there is all the light of the welder, and the noise of the metal being forced open, plus the external sensors.

Can it be used to get behind the aliens/split up their forces? Yes, but that's the point. But it can just as easily be held by the aliens on the inside as it can by you on the outside. Plus they still have grenades, and you can't close a breached wall...