Geoscape Balance Discussion V20 Experimental 7

[Aaron]

Some pretty significant balance changes in this build, so I am refreshing this thread to discuss them.

I have implemented a rebalancing of the air combat mini-game and the costs of base structures. Both of these will probably seem quite harsh - Condors have taking a beating in performance and should no longer be viable in the long term and base maintenance costs have increased, so money will be tighter - adjustment to previous strategies will likely be required!

Here are the changes:

- General update to air combat balance - too many changes to list individually, but generally:

-- Ranges of starting aircraft reduced, so the Condor now has quite short legs!

-- Speeds of aircraft and UFOs adjusted to encourage progression, Condors will have trouble catching UFOs reliably

-- Damage of Xenonaut weapons adjusted: 2 heavy missiles now always do slightly more damage than the equivalent 2 light missiles + gun

-- UFO health adjusted in line with the damage changes so that earlier weapons have an increasingly tougher time against later UFOs

-- Turn rates of various craft adjusted to encourage more manoeuvring around larger UFOs in air combat

-- Radar ranges of Xenonaut aircraft adjusted so they now progress from small to larger on later long range craft

-- Maintenance costs of all aircraft set to a flat rate of $100000 per month for fighters, $50000 for dropships - no increase for later craft

-- Auto-resolve rebalanced to take into account all of the above

-- Build cost of Mig31 increased to 200000, as the above changes gave it a bit of a buff

-- Reduced Refuelling time of aircraft by about a third

-- Increased re-armament time from 30 to 60 minutes

- Also rebalanced the maintenance costs of base buildings from around 10% of the cost of the building to 25%

- Introduced a build time for new bases, and significantly increased the maintenance cost of command centre

Thoughts away!

[cb1987]

I'd like to start by saying I support the updates to air combat in spirit, condors were too useful in late game previously, however I'm struggling with the severity of the changes.

Has the distribution of UFO spawns around the globe been widened this build? I ask because I played the first 3 months of a new game in v20e6 on easy and found far fewer UFOs spawning near my base in North America, while also having many more "ufo activity" reports from areas not covered by my radar than in v20e5.

The nerfs to condor range and speed mean I can't really catch small scouts if they maintain full speed. I don't mind being slower than the UFOs and only catching up when they turn or go to land, but the lowered fuel allowance means that catching a small or medium scout with enough fuel to fight it seems to just be down to random chance.

All this combined meant I was only able to shoot down 3 UFOs in the first 3 months, and was getting over $100,000 in budget cuts each month due to the unchecked alien activity.

I considered restarting and building a second base immediately to increase my coverage, but the 20 day build time of the command centre plus another 10 days for hangars and radar, means a full month before I can do anything to stop the huge drops in funding.

I realise that some changes in strategy are expected with large changes like this, but the combination of higher UFO frequency, poorer interceptors and increased maintenance feels too punishing at the moment.

[StK]

While I also think something had to be done about the Condor, I don't think cutting it's speed and range is the right angle.

I played 2 games but stopped because the Geoscape-part just felt frustrating. If a UFO doesn't "want" to fight your interceptor you wont catch it. period.

[winterwolves]

I don't like the idea that ground missions don't give a relations boost any more.

I think air combat should, as well, not instead.

Also, on the ground combat mission results: civilian deaths should be a bigger penalty than local forces lost. Local forces are supposed to fight, so they gotta expect losses. Civilian deaths should be more of a penalty to encourage risk-taking to save them.

[superbob]

Haven't had the time to play yet, but what from I hear, the changes are a bit harsh and seem to push the balance toward artificial difficulty rather than anything grounded in reality.

How about balancing the condors by timing their evasive roll timeout so that it becomes increasingly difficult to dodge later ships' attacks? That way Corsairs would be the only cheap, lategame option for for sustainable air defense, while Condors would require either serious skill or save-scrubbing to use effectively later on in the game.

Also making ground-combat execution no longer factor into relations (except for negative scores) seems like a wrong turn to me... Both reducing the depth of the game and another departure from the original.

[StK]

The balancing way I would like to see most is to not let the Condor equip the more advanced weaponry. This would keep it as a good interceptor during early and its usefulness fading away during midgame. If still needed maybe a dmg buff to later weaponry while also buffing hp of later UFOs. This connected to the flat rate maintenance and the increasing radar range of later crafts should discourage Condor spamming during later game stages enough.

[Max_Caine]

I haven't had a terror attack in this build yet, but are civvies going to be pointless wastes of space, then? If the relationship score is front-loaded onto the UFO, then why would I care if civvies die in a Terror Attack... or any other mission either.

[lemm]

How about balancing the condors by timing their evasive roll timeout so that it becomes increasingly difficult to dodge later ships' attacks? That way Corsairs would be the only cheap, lategame option for for sustainable air defense, while Condors would require either serious skill or save-scrubbing to use effectively later on in the game.

This could be done by increasing alien interceptor missile speed by 50% (to 18000) and by lowering the lock time to 1 second. The alien missiles will then catch condors "mid roll".

The balancing way I would like to see most is to not let the Condor equip the more advanced weaponry.

I agree that this would be the easiest way to fix the problem, and it even fits in with the lore. The early game air balance in 19V5 was great. Just assign a tech level to each air weapon and a weapons tech level max to each airship.

[StK]

I haven't had a terror attack in this build yet, but are civvies going to be pointless wastes of space, then? If the relationship score is front-loaded onto the UFO, then why would I care if civvies die in a Terror Attack... or any other mission either.

Only the positive score is bound to the UFO. you will still rake in negatives (^^,). I made a thread in beta discussions about the implications this might have.. but i don't really have an idea how it is handled since the values aren't shown anymore.

[Dranak]

This could be done by increasing alien interceptor missile speed by 50% (to 18000) and by lowering the lock time to 1 second. The alien missiles will then catch condors "mid roll".

I agree that this would be the easiest way to fix the problem, and it even fits in with the lore. The early game air balance in 19V5 was great. Just assign a tech level to each air weapon and a weapons tech level max to each airship.

It would simple enough to just have a steady progression in UFO speed where Condors can catch early game UFOs, but are unable to catch up to later game ones, which naturally forces you to upgrade aircraft to take on later game enemies (while still leaving Condors somewhat useful all game). The current speed changes seem to be a step in the right direction, but they're a bit jarring. Condors are now vastly slower than all UFOs, which now basically have two speeds (1500 and 2500). I'd like to see some more gradients there, something more like this:

Condor: 1000 (Current value)

Foxtrot: 2000 (current value)

Light Scout: 600

Scout: 1000

Corvette: 1400

Landing Ship: 1800

Cruiser: 2200

That way it becomes increasingly difficult for our planes to catch new classes of UFOs. The main downside I see to this is that it would make UFO identification much easier.

Corsairs and Foxtrots... they currently have identical flight characteristics (except for turning speed), so they're just a Foxtrot that can roll instead of equipping torpedoes. I know that's unlikely to change, but it just feels like they're trying to be forced into a very small niche simply to create a reason for Marauders to exist later. The idea of creating a new aircraft that can't equip our existing weaponry just seems kind of nuts to me, and I'd be furious at my engineers for trying to produce such an inherently flawed design.

Edit: Since I can't actually play v6 atm, I'll speculatively say that the idea of not being able to successfully intercept the earliest game UFOs sounds like a major fun turn-off. Although I do like the idea of the freebie missions not appearing on harder difficulties.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Dranak

[henri5]

The purpose of any game is to have fun. The latest changes seem to encourage "playing the system" instead of "fighting the aliens". I could be wrong, but I suspect that the changes were inspired by the programmers seeing how the best players could easily beat the game (which is true for any game). I would hold that most players do not fit that class, and that the game should be tailored for the average player. Adding difficulty levels would help a lot of course.

[TrashMan]

I'm personally begining to think that all aircraft shoudl have unlimited range.

It makes no sense that a a CHOPER has unlimited range, but an advanced fighter doesn't. Air refueling.

Frankly, range is unecessary as a balancing factor, when speed (the ability to catch UFO's at all or reach them before they go away), and fight performance (durabillity, damage output) already work well enough.

[StK]

@TrashMan I disagree from a gameplay and a lore point.

First the gameplay. Unlimited range means unlimited fuel which in turn means you can leave your aircraft up on any point in the world indefinitely, which screws with some interessting decisions (f.e. how do i protect my skyranger when its flying to the otherside of the world, or is it even to risky to take the terror missions, etc.)

Second the lore:

Air refuling (which would also work for choppers btw.) requires a slow unarmed aircraft to stay in an area for a considerable mount of time. The UFOs would have a field day with those things and I think it would be nearly impossible to maintain it as the Aliens should know quite quickly the strategic implications of leaving those tankers flying.

[TrashMan]

@TrashMan I disagree from a gameplay and a lore point.

First the gameplay. Unlimited range means unlimited fuel which in turn means you can leave your aircraft up on any point in the world indefinitely, which screws with some interessting decisions (f.e. how do i protect my skyranger when its flying to the otherside of the world, or is it even to risky to take the terror missions, etc.)

And where does that gameplay element go by end-game?

You protect your skyranger the smae way you send that skyranger over there i nthe first place - if the skyranger can reach a place, then so should any aircraft in existence.

Furthermore, since you have a limited number of aircraft, then where you deply them is a decision. And sending aircraft on patrols IS a valid strategy and has been since airplanes were invented.

Second the lore:

Air refuling (which would also work for choppers btw.) requires a slow unarmed aircraft to stay in an area for a considerable mount of time. The UFOs would have a field day with those things and I think it would be nearly impossible to maintain it as the Aliens should know quite quickly the strategic implications of leaving those tankers flying.

The air tanker isn't a Xenonaut craft rather one of the thousands of tankers loned from the militaries of the world. Would the aliens even detect it, or tell it apart from all the other aircraft flying around? Why aren't they detecting or intercepting the transport aircraft carriyng people and equipment between bases?

Furthermore, re-fuel points as planned in advance (meaning the tanker wouldn't loiter in the area for hours), but can be established quickly if necessary, given how many military bases there are in the world. Even if the aircraft doesnt' re-fel in air, it could land on any airfield in the world and re-fuel there.

And how do you explain the chinooks unlimtied range lore-wise?

[Max_Caine]

The Chinooks extended (rather than unlimited) range is explained in the Xenopedia, the explanation of which dovetails into the explanation why there's only room for eight soldiers.

Edit: And hang on a second, there are alien interception missions which specifically go after Xenonaut aircraft. Not any other aircraft - Xenonaut aircraft. So there's every reaosn to believe that a Xenonaut aircraft lining up with a tanker would get zapped quickly as after a given point in the game, the alien specifically start looking for Xenonaut aircraft and bases.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Max_Caine

[StK]

@TrashMan:

I could give you several explanations based on >this< why aerial refuling in the Xenonauts environment would be highly improbable. (the need of uncontested Airspace would be one of the more important ones)

But none of it would matter. The essence is this: For the gameplay as it is now the "so high range its nearly unlimited"-range Skyranger is a necessity and always has been since EU 95. The maximum range of the Interceptor planes is a design decision to force descisions on the player and to also give a feeling of spatial progression as the game continues.

edit: in the game the Aliens recognize threats very well as they prove by going after xenonaut-planes and bases rather quickly. The strategic tankers would be recognized as threats (because they improve the combat readyness as well as the range of xenonaut planes) and easy targets. Then you would have to protect the tankers, account for pilots getting tired and so on and so forth. That would go beyond the scope of this game but if you enjoy those things (as I do) I can suggest a game for you: Paradox's Naval Warfare.

edit2: and if you really like managing all those tings I would recommend War in the Pacific: Admirals Edition by Matrix games. A great, but very very time consuming game.

Edited November 30, 2013 by StK

[TrashMan]

The Chinooks extended (rather than unlimited) range is explained in the Xenopedia, the explanation of which dovetails into the explanation why there's only room for eight soldiers.

Lol...yeh, no amount of extra fuel tanks will give the Chinook a global range. Try again.

[Max_Caine]

I don't have to try again. I don't have to try. The explanation is written. If you don't like it, then appeal to the person who wrote it. And good luck to you, if you try.

[TrashMan]

Actually, you do have to try.

An explanation that doesn't hold water is not a good explanation.

Not to mention that the xenopedia also states that xeno aircraft have extra fuel tanks too, so why don't hey have unlimited range? Especially given that even the basic F-16 has a greater operational range and speed than a Chinook.

When it comes to lore, it's certanly not "better" by any stretch of the word.

And when it comes to gameplay it adds little (because the issue isn't only aircraft range, but also the speed with which they can get there). Even with unlimited range, you simply couldn't get away with a single air base.

[StK]

@TrashMan

Yes he is right. he doesnt have to.

and well we disagree on the gameplay aspect and it seems the developers do too

[TrashMan]

And I say he does.

Extra fuel tanks on a shorter-ranged craft = unlimited range.

Extra fuel tank on a longer-ranged craft = short range.

Explain how this makes sense.

Fuel as a gameplay element can be completely abstracted (or at least can play into battle endurance, rather than global one) - there's plenty of other elements left.

[Max_Caine]

And how do you explain the chinooks unlimtied range lore-wise?

It's explained.

In the lore.

By.

The lead.

Developer.

If you don't like it.

Tell the lead developer that.

I don't have to try.

Because, (say it with me now).

It's.

In.

The.

Lore.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

Totally the wrong tree.

In fact, you're in the wrong forest.

You want the concrete jungle.

Turn left at the Thames.

Try his local boozer.

Or his therapist.

Or Tescos Local.

Watch out you don't get arrested as a stalker!

But yeah, wrong tree.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Max_Caine

[superbob]

Having finally entered into endgame phase, I think there's still a long way to go for endgame geoscape balance. Early and mid-game I'd say it is fine. Later I gained way too much dominance and ended up just speeding through waves I'd autoresolve/airstrike, which also resulted in no terror sites and no alien bases being built. I shot down and killed everything. By the time I stocked my dropships with mag weapons and railgun hovertanks, I didn't even feel the need to do any more missions.

I feel that the effort to streamline and simplify game mechanics went a bit too far. As I mentioned earlier, expansion in v20e5 was too easy. With greater maintenance costs and slower reputation/funding increase, my progress would've slowed down a bit, but the end result would probably be the same.

Making Condors worse will slow my transition to Corsairs, due to worse overall results, but ultimately I don't think things will change all that much once I got there. If heavy missiles will have a much bigger punch than they did in v20e5, that will be a good reason for getting Marauders - otherwise, it was only their increased range that made them better than Corsair/Foxtrot combo that I used mid-game. Actually I still use these now and they kill most things easily, with the exception of the largest ships that have escorts. By the time these appeared however, I had a few Furies built, so I had them annihilate anything that looked like trouble.

I feel that a more challenging endgame experience would be easily possible within the current framework. Bigger alien ships maybe? I guess its a bit too late to create new ships and artwork, but since air combat is getting more focus, how about making the massive ships three times as large, covered by multiple escort wings and require more than three planes to take down? Having to organize and maintain a larger fleet at later stages of the game wouldn't require massively rebalancing air combat in earlier stages - early-game aircraft and strategies would simply not work anymore. Also such huge ships would give more justification for the Fury interceptor, as things are now they are just a convenient way of dealing with annoying enemy interceptors, while whatever they do can be done with Corsairs and Foxtrots.

Basically, I'm asking for another late-game difficulty increase that would keep me busy for a few ingame months while I upgrade my fleet, and hopefully give me a while to research mag weapons while I still have a chance to use them before initiating operation endgame.

In original xcom, that was done by aliens spamming battleships, which you needed Avengers to counter, and psi-labs, which took two months to build and have any effect. Both needed (what felt like) more research, also building these endgame ships required more resources, while here I kill everything with mid-game jets that are put together within few days out of salvage I dig out of every crash site.

Anyhow, should I play through operation endgame now? Or maybe I ought to leave that for a later iteration of the game, like v20 stable?

[Commissar Pancakes]

Just to get off topic for a little here...

I think you guys just broke Max...

[ventuswings]

Also to force players to engage in more late ship missions instead of air bombing everything, already proposed idea about setting experience cap for specific type of ships make sense to me. For example, if it's impossible for someone to get stats higher than 65 from doing light scout missions, player will have to send their A team to late-game ships to train them instead of farming the light scouts and scouts for stats.

Edited December 4, 2013 by ventuswings