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Is a loadout menu planned before base defence missions? I found myself several times in very bad situations, where most of my solders had rifle role. This is a problem if you have a lot of manufactured armour and weapons that are simply not used, and one also does not have any role variety in the defence.

The largest problem is the stripping of the equipment once a soldier returns from hospital - and becomes rifle role - thus a lot of elite soldiers are equipped with useless guns, no grenades etc...

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I think catching you with your pants down is part of the point of the missions. You CAN re-arm your troops whenever you feel like before that. It only hurts when you're actually surprised by the mission, and don't have a weapon on-hand... which is sort of what the mission is supposed to simulate, anyway.

(And it still beats a base mission where your guys are lugging around rocket launchers with no rockets, or a whole backpack full of pistol ammo with no pistols.)

That said, I think it would probably be a better challenge to create some sort of armory you can raid in the storage rooms or something, and get all the weapons you have available to the player at the time if you get there, but make the journey to the armory the challenge. It makes the initial portions of the level much more of a desperate scramble, especially if you randomly disarmed some of the soldiers for, basically, being off-duty and too far from their weapons when the aliens landed. (You'd have to scale difficulty for this, of course, and maybe have some quirk in the AI where most of the aliens are "held back" and don't charge for a few turns with only a few leading chargers going up ahead at first, giving the armed soldiers a chance to get the disarmed ones to the armory before the viscera really hits the air recirculation device.

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Unless we think base missions involve the aliens sneaking up on foot and breaking down the door in a surprise attack, having base missions start with troops that are unprepared makes no sense at all. If some of the troops are armed, it only really makes sense for all of them to be armed. I say that having actually been in a quick reaction situation where you have about 5 minutes to go from being asleep to in uniform and fully geared up.

From a realism perspective, it doesn't make any kind of sense to say, "Well, you equipped a rifle last week, and we never told you to grab a shotgun instead, so you're stuck with the rifle. And no, you can't grab a pistol out of the weapons safe. What are you doing with that armor? You can't wear that, it wasn't assigned to you!" Even assuming you only have 5-10 minutes warning (and in-game, you have hours), there's no realism reason not to allow equipping before battle.

Sure, I could manually go through all my troops and do that every time I see a suspicious UFO, but that's tedious.

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Well,

A) That assumes everyone's in the barracks at all times. It's already silly that nobody ever sleeps, but just walking around in armor is silly, as well.

B) It's a game that's already severely unrealistic in a great many respects, so suddenly appealing to realism alone now doesn't carry all that much weight.

C) It would make the mission more distinct compared to other missions, and possibly make it more fun for the variety. I.E. Rule of Fun.

Beyond that, there isn't much reason to need to swap out gear "every time" you see a UFO - there's little reason you can't just leave a guy with a shotgun. The only time this is even a pressing issue is when someone has their gear reset. (Which may well be a bug, anyway, has someone tried reporting it?) Otherwise, the worst problem is that maybe you have more sniper rifles than shotguns equipped. Hence, it's a matter of a couple guys at a time that you probably should pay attention to at some point, anyway.

Besides which, if there's that armory to grab weapons from in the battlescape, it would mean you could do all that, just with the added fun of having a reaper knocking down your door when you are rushing for the rocket launchers. The fact that you might technically have something close to infinite ammo might even be part of the fun.

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It is a great idea to have an armory or better yet the storage rooms filled with our gear (produced and standard in infinite amount), but I guess this will not be implemented unless the team is already working on it (would be fun though :))

I would argument for the usage of the equipment screen with two reasons:

1. The bug that removes items from soldiers and giving them default rifle loadout even if their role says something else has been reported i think but does a great job in messing my defense up

2. The other and even stronger reason is the same why we have infinite ammo: remove micromanagement where it is not relevant part of the game experience. Now some may enjoy the surprise they get from their pants being pulled down after tedious hours of combat and would rather micromanage equipment for ALL their soldiers after EACH mission (since each mission changes the stats and roles at least by me), it just may be a tedious and boring task for a lot with a HUGE risk of loosing a base which is basically game over.

We could also argument along the lines of reality but the above two points are already hitting the game-play hard. Both situation may be considered "real" but I feel in a mission with stakes being so high one should not encourage the player to use save cheat or do boring equipment synch for all soldiers each time a large UFO comes close to base (once or twice per month)

On a side note I have to say I love the base defense map: The props quality and the rooms are just beautiful and have you already seen the plasma battery? It deserves a place in my base even if I am not quite sure if it reduces the amount of attacking aliens just because of its style :)

Edited by zolobolo
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A) That assumes everyone's in the barracks at all times. It's already silly that nobody ever sleeps, but just walking around in armor is silly, as well.

B) It's a game that's already severely unrealistic in a great many respects, so suddenly appealing to realism alone now doesn't carry all that much weight.

C) It would make the mission more distinct compared to other missions, and possibly make it more fun for the variety. I.E. Rule of Fun.

A. Not really--my assumption is that everyone is on base, and that you have a commander who isn't a complete idiot and has everyone stand by if a UFO that can't be intercepted is nearby.

B. Then why'd you even bring it up?

C. It doesn't make the mission distinct except in a bad way. I'm perfectly capable of manually equipping my troops every time a UFO is nearby, but I don't want to.

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I think base unpreparedness or preparedness would both make sense, depending on how we imagine the aliens' attack. Therefore, the most-varied and lore-friendly gameplay (and fun too) would be to account for both situations - perhaps by having some introduction text as to how the aliens have surprised XCOM or, alternatively, how we detected them well beforehand and now get to equip before battle. If Xcom was surprised, no soldiers would have weapons (or only a handful) and you would need actual guns somewhere in the base to run and pick up.

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I think this is one of the small but very important issues left. The loadout screen should come up before the base begins.

Having loadouts for your soldiers is of course the only realistic option, it worked that way in the original, and it would save the manual hassle of equipping all soldiers whenever there's a suspicious UFO. And it would plain and simple result in better gameplay.

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The base personnel have enough time to get to the secure bunker beneath the command center, presumably at the same time the soldiers are gearing up and deploying those sandbags. Remember the base is underground, so even after the ufo has landed after surviving any ground fire from turrets, so we can know the base knows about it at that point if not before (before is likely), it still takes a certain amount of time for the base to be breached.

My main complaint would be a lack of fixed defences, heh. If you've set up sandbag emplacements, how about some fixed .50 cals? Adapt them from scout car turrets! Bah, it's like there are arbitrary considerations beyond effectiveness to take into account or something...

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Fixed defenses would of course make sense, but would detract from the gameplay. Realistically, there's a whole number of defensive systems that would be employed. Not just static guns but also each door would be possible to lock so they'd only open if they blown up, etc. But realistic base defense missions would lack the gameplay quality. The inability to choose loadouts though is negative for both realism and gameplay.

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That's the point, you're just forced to do it the tedious way instead of being presented with the screen. Doesn't add anything but tedium, it's not like the idea is that you should be taken by complete surprise so you can't even equip.

And the problem isn't with the base defense requiring different loadouts, it's with the soldiers that were wounded and otherwise automatically reset to default crappy loadouts.

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It doesn't make the mission distinct except in a bad way. I'm perfectly capable of manually equipping my troops every time a UFO is nearby, but I don't want to.

Well,l I think the problem here is, you consider a difference in how you always are perfectly well equipped for every specific threat to you, and maybe have to scramble a bit with a weaker hand than you normally have before you can rally to be a "bad thing".

Personally, I find the variation, and even the chance to have a situation to be in a serious panic to be a benefit. Having to pull some guys that had to be called in late to the armory to get prepared in the middle of battle (plus, having some extra weapons lying around to equip them,) would be a major plus, and make it much more distinct as a base compared to a terror mission situation.

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Fixed defenses would of course make sense, but would detract from the gameplay. Realistically, there's a whole number of defensive systems that would be employed. Not just static guns but also each door would be possible to lock so they'd only open if they blown up, etc. But realistic base defense missions would lack the gameplay quality. The inability to choose loadouts though is negative for both realism and gameplay.

You make subjective statements that lack supporting arguments.

Why, exactly, does a static defense "lack the gameplay quality"? You say it as if it is self-evident, when it is not.

Other than that, why are you even waiting until a UFO is coming to arm your troops, anyway? I don't know about you, but any time I have a change in staff, I take care of supplying them with weaponry instantly. It seems to me like you're complaining about a proper consequence of your own lack of care and attention.

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Laege/medium UFO bee-lining for your base?

Go to base and check out the loadouts. Done.

The task can be done no question. But why force the player to do this when it does not have a clear benefit?

The change of the equipment screen instead of the 2 phase loadout from the original makes sense since it shortens preparation time (player does not have to assign weapons to the transport and later assign them to the soldiers before mission).

It is probably not the intention of the developers to drive the player (especially beginners) into a situation where they are unprepared and most surely loose especially given the critical nature of base defense combat, especially if this situation can be avoided with a simple but highly robotic task that does not add any gaming value. It is just something a player does to avoid being wiped out, is not fun, and thus may be considered unnecessary.

This is a typical task that the good ol IT god created batches for - a good friend of all admins who can do more interesting stuff then log archiving ;)

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It seems to me like you're complaining about a proper consequence of your own lack of care and attention.

Some like to wash up after each meal and others only after a critical mass of stuff in the sink. Either way, the job gets done - Equipment of the troops is important part of the game but it should not be a bad trait if a player does not fiddle with the whole roster after each mission.

I could understand the argument to force the player into a disadvantageous situation if it makes sense, is grounded in the lore and he/she is given the chance to survive by placing the equipment into storeroom. Otherwise it is only a statement along the lines: "You did not know your base could be assaulted? You didn't check your soldiers equipment after each mission? Game Over"

A game is nothing more than a simulation of obstacles. The main difference between games and real life is that a game has clear rules, thus a player can act accordingly and achieve prompt positive feedback. If the rules force you to do tasks that do not reward you or the rules are not clear, the fun in games is lost.

Thus the question rises: Why should I check equipment of all soldiers when I am not planning a mission, some guys are in hospital and will be available in various time intervals and factory is producing new stuff? How should I know there is going to be an attack against my base if I did not know such things can happen, and that I am not going to be able to equip my guys before that?

Take the other side: I will check equipment each time after a mission - doing so produces work that is made obsolete since available items and soldiers will change before a mission and I will probably fine tune soldier equipment for the mission. Work done thus obsolete and we are back to real life where most of the stuff we do is overkill and in the end useless (I will now go and wash some dishes ;))

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Well,l I think the problem here is, you consider a difference in how you always are perfectly well equipped for every specific threat to you, and maybe have to scramble a bit with a weaker hand than you normally have before you can rally to be a "bad thing".

Personally, I find the variation, and even the chance to have a situation to be in a serious panic to be a benefit. Having to pull some guys that had to be called in late to the armory to get prepared in the middle of battle (plus, having some extra weapons lying around to equip them,) would be a major plus, and make it much more distinct as a base compared to a terror mission situation.

No, in fact, I don't think it's particularly fun to start with unarmed troops that can only depend on luck to survive. Some sort of scramble to go equip my troops (and play inventory management in the middle of combat--ugh) while getting shot at sounds like the opposite of fun. Doesn't even sound like a reason to panic--your troops will die on the way to the armory or they'll make it, but without a weapon there's not much to do except run and hope you make it.

Really, the worst part of that scenario is the idea of breaking up the flow of combat to mess around with the inventory screen for my entire force.

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You make subjective statements that lack supporting arguments.

Why, exactly, does a static defense "lack the gameplay quality"? You say it as if it is self-evident, when it is not.

I find it rather intuitive that base defense missions should depend only on your own tactical ability and control of your troops, and not be decided in any way by static defenses or other elements of the base that would detract from your own control.

It seems to me like you're complaining about a proper consequence of your own lack of care and attention.

I am complaining about being required to jump through hoops. There are things that the game should ask of me, but there are other things it asks which basically amount to just extra clicks or time spent for no good reason. Micromanagement of that sort is evil. When I have to manually check loadouts not just before missions but anytime I see a suspicious UFO, or when a soldier gets injured, that's micromanagement and not actual tactical decisions.

After a lot of experience with games like this, it becomes clear that they are fun because they give you lots of fun decisions that matter, while also minimizing the decisions that don't matter. If something should be done 100% of the time because it nets you better results, that's not a decision. Then it needs to be eliminated by changing the balance, automating it, or something else. Making sure your soldiers are equipped for base defense is a no-brainer. No quality decisions are achieved by essentially forcing many extra clicks.

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I find it rather intuitive that base defense missions should depend only on your own tactical ability and control of your troops, and not be decided in any way by static defenses or other elements of the base that would detract from your own control.

Whether you believe it intuitive or not, you still need to at least state some sort of reasoning when you make a statement if you're attempting persuasive argument.

I'd honestly have to chortle at the notion that there's no such thing as luck in this game. Combat is, at best, just trying to load the dice in your favor in the middle of a crapshoot. The difference between good play and bad play is whether it's a 10% or a 25% chance your guy gets fried, more often than not.

Still, without the capacity to edit where the turrets go, there is at least some sound reasoning in that.

I'd still think that you could put them down as machine gun nests or something, and treat them as vehicles, however, so that they operate by similar rules to how other units operate, except for being immobile.

When I have to manually check loadouts not just before missions but anytime I see a suspicious UFO, or when a soldier gets injured, that's micromanagement and not actual tactical decisions.

This, right here, is the problem I have with this line of argument.

No, you don't have to manually check loadouts "every time you see a UFO".

You only have to do a new loadout every time you have either a new troop, (which you'd have to do, anyway, and which has a warning pop up to let you immediately load them out,) or if someone was critically injured and had their gear reset. (Which, again, sounds more like a bug that could be removed, and solve the whole problem.)

Hence, I don't see any reason why you would need to spend any more time fussing over troop equipment than you already do, and what you already do is little more than occasional updates based upon getting new gear in, or gaining enough strength to equip more gear. (I already wind up going to the equipment screen to shove another grenade into a soldier's pack every other mission.)

I will check equipment each time after a mission - doing so produces work that is made obsolete since available items and soldiers will change before a mission and I will probably fine tune soldier equipment for the mission. Work done thus obsolete and we are back to real life where most of the stuff we do is overkill and in the end useless

Well, why do you need to "fine tune soldier equipment" for every single mission?

Especially if you're already going into the equipment menu every single battle, anyway, why is it so onerous to just make a single check to see if the guy got out of the hospital, and tap the three or four buttons it takes to give them a decent weapon at that point? Then, you don't have to do anything else again until after they are on their next mission, or the next time you've swapped around who goes on deployments.

Again, I just don't see why you even need this chance to swap gear in the first place. If a UFO is coming for my base, the only people who might not have the right gear already, just because I haven't fiddled with them since the last time they were ready, are people who have their gear unequipped. And again, I think that just plain qualifies as a bug, anyway. Without that bug, there's no reason you'd even need it.

No, in fact, I don't think it's particularly fun to start with unarmed troops that can only depend on luck to survive.

And here, we have what is simply a total misreading of what I said.

Most importantly, the idea is that some of your troops aren't fully in position. Most of your troops have weapons and are ready.

The point, then, is to have the armed and ready soldiers escort their unprepared fellows to their gear.

Other than that, so far as randomness goes, I, again, have to point out that basically everything in this game is, at best, just managing completely random events. Reading through these forums, I see people angrily denouncing talk about modifying how the alien invasion progresses or how tech becomes available to suit where the player is in development as "taking the game away from the RNG". Suddenly, having random events is the enemy now?

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Suddenly, having random events is the enemy now?

Most of those on side of an equipment option before a base invasion are probably not against random events, I am sure most of us would welcome those if they are in line with all other events and the conditions (I would not appreciate a random event that blows up my hangars each time red light blimps in the lower right corner, except if I click it fast enough). Fact is you do have the chance and are encouraged to equip soldiers before each mission:

It makes sense:

1. It raises chances of survival if you give environment sensitive weapon e.g.: do not use many snipers for a large UFO breach, and even less shotguns for terror missions ..etc.

2. It optimizes costs if we produce the minimal amount of armour we need for missions and only assign them once a mission is imminent - thus no armour is laying around unused. Same goes for weapons and tanks

3. It optimizes soldier development: if we select the attack roster once attack is imminent so we decide if a rookie can fit in (if the UFO is small enough). This also concerns role assignments. Why do I fine tune soldiers before battle? Because soldiers are not role affinitive, and the game rewards you if you are using various roles for a specific soldier - I simply change the role of my soldiers according to the tactical team composition and the assignment.

And then we have a mission, that is rather rare and does NOT allow you to equip soldiers before it but has the largest possible impact on game progress. Sure, it can be foreseen but the problem lies in the fact that there is no real reason to keep all your troops on their toes all the time due to the above and the base mission relies on human (meat machine) detection. It is per definition a chore UNLESS you are always equipped which due to the above is a whole lot of lost energy and time.

So the questions is why wouldn't you want such an option?

1. Those who are always prepared are not affected in their game play - no reduction of quality there

2. If one would like to punish via game mechanics those who take the above approach I can understand that but then I would argument that a game should not contain such a component - I also cannot imagine that this was the original goal. It is a result of the mechanics of the game that wanted to spare players the equipment screen before each mission but now it needs to be recognized that in this particular scenario it is needed.

Can we have a workaround instead? Sure, just let out a message early on: "UFO 12 has taken course towards our XY base commander. Base invasion imminent. Ready your defenses"

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That's the point, you're just forced to do it the tedious way instead of being presented with the screen. Doesn't add anything but tedium, it's not like the idea is that you should be taken by complete surprise so you can't even equip.

Forced to do it a TEDOUS way? What's so tedious?

It's LITERALLY 2 clicks instead of one to get to the equip screen.

Just how many UFO's bee-lining for you base do you get anyway? The base defense requires one thing and one thing only - watch the UFO's. This is something you should be doing anyway.

Edited by TrashMan
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Forced to do it a TEDOUS way? What's so tedious?

Definition of tedious from google: "Too long, slow, or dull: tiresome or monotonous"

It is monitoring activity which requires a meat machine to observe all incoming UFOs and determing if they are heading to one of its bases, in which case equipment screen needs to be loaded and preparations met. The activity needs to start from the third month I think, and needs to last until the end of the game in which period, the analysis done by the brain is always the same. It does not change, never, it ads no value, it requires no decision since the monitoring activity is straight forward. It is a very good example for a boring activity because of its monotony and boring activities get tiresome.

It is kinda like breathing or blinking, but we have evolved so that this is managed by the unconsciousness. Sadly we cannot push daily activities simply there though so using scripts is advised, and in case of the game a notification will probably do.

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