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Artillery/Transport Ship Support


Aldazar

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I'm well aware that the FAQ states that there will be no artillery because it reduces the excitement of the game...

2 points though:

1 - How many chinooks have you ever seen that don't have at least mounted machine guns if not heavier support weapons? Clearing the landing area prior to landing and/or protecting your troops during deployment just plain makes sense...

2 - If you require "spotting" in the form of using a laser designator or similar, artillery doesn't have to be a god-like super-power, it just gives you another way to attack a problem. It allows a lightly armed, mobile unit to designate a target for a more powerful artillery piece that is either fixed on the transport or even fired from the air/space. It is not risk-free or lacking in tension as the designating unit still has to have some form of sight (even if it's only on the outside of a building the alien is hiding in) and it's not necessarily overpowered because presumably it would require some resource investment to acquire such abilities...

Just a thought...

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There's no aliens spawning in the exclusion zone around the Chinook / dropship for exactly that reason. But yes, I'm not arguing with the points you made logically but in game terms I don't think it's a good idea. We all know the current X-Com mechanics work extremely well and I don't think support weapons would add to them - the best argument for them so far is that they're more realistic and if implemented won't unbalance the game, but to me that's not really the same as adding to the game.

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I've already fudged it in my own head by saying it's the mounted weaponry on the transport that keeps aliens from spawning in the exclusion zone. I'm not certain it's necessary to ever make that explicit, but if you ever decide to Chris, you could also occasionally have the corpse of an alien already present in the zone to make it seem like that alien was killed during flyover and/or landing.

When considering the design of an x-com-like remake game myself, I've always wanted to add in (among other things, 20 minutes into the future for me!) arty support, either soldiers with mortars, vehicles with mortars of some sort of air support (full SPGs not so much, heh). Perhaps provided by some of your interceptors tasked to the mission etc, but it requires an entirely different style of gameplay, one more action-orientated and less you're-going-to-die-from-the-dark orientated. Suffice to say, it could be done in a fun manner, but you'd be moving far away from the slow, scary style of gameplay that x-com and xenonauts were going for. Xenonauts in particular is wanting to recreate the feel of x-com, not just take the basic idea and run in a different direction. Watching Chris talk about his design ethos I've come to realise my ideas would lead very much to an 'inspired by x-com' game, rather than a remake. I think he's done very well in adding to the original game without deviating very far at all from what made it unique.

I still want to bitch about the view ranges though... : P

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I'm not a fan of adding more fire support in to the combat.

Terror had that torpedo you could fire, set way points and pretty much put it where ever you wanted from anywhere on the map. I never used it since it seemed to overpower the game; it was like hitting the 'i win button'.

Indirect fire really takes the punch out of the combat.

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  • 10 months later...

I know this is a necro, but the subject matter of this thread is something I have thought about extensively myself.

Aldazar raises an excellent point about how such game mechanics could move the game away from the original sort of creepy X-com aesthetic. But, I don't think anyone can really say that unless such features are actually tried out, which is what I hope modders might be able to do in the future.

Anyway, for the sake of toying a bit with the idea, let's pretend that such mechanics (SPGs, gunships, mortars, attack plane support, missiles, etc.) are in the game. The way I see it, the kind of stuff the Xenonauts are trying to do most of the time are quick in-and-out sort of raids that are surgical in nature (think about the Bin Laden raid! :D). Maybe an artillery strike or air support of some sort could be called in once or twice in a small engagement of such a short time scale, depending on if and how much of whatever would be needed to do that you sent along with the dropship or had available some other way. But such things would (at least I think... I'm no RL soldier) be blunt instruments (except for maybe mortars... but I don't see how those would be really much different from grenades other than the operator being further away from the action...).

Plus, verisimilitude would dictate that, especially later in the game, the aliens would have good enough air superiority that setting up such air strikes and the like would be very difficult, risky, and maybe not worth it at all. Or maybe they would have some sort of technology that would completely make such things pointless in the first place which would further add to immersion. I think the creepyness and x-com feel would stay and the general gameplay wouldn't change much, especially if the aliens had countermeasures and their own tricks up their sleeves... I mean, it would still always boil down to the individual soldiers doing the killing and stuff, and the air superiority of the aliens would effectively keep your squad isolated and on their own, especially after any sort of hypothetical long range support has already happened. I don't think such game mechanics would take the punch out of combat at all in the slightest. In fact, I think it would add to immersion into the game universe since things would all seem more plausible... but that is a dangerous road to go down.

Just my two cents... long story short, I hope I or someone else mods this in at least as an experiment.

Edited by Andeerz
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I'm not seeing any thoughts or ideas concerning implementing said features Andeerz. It looks like you are just reasoning around the realism of the mechanics. 0.o Is that right?

For example how would alien air superiority prevent you from using an airstrike? wouldn't you need to have local air superiority to reach the crash site in the first place without having your chinook being shot down? This to me looks like you have just considered how it would work in real life but not how it would connect together inside a game. :(

How would the game know if it can launch an airstrike or not. (How would you trigger that to begin with?)

what would the point of having airstrikes in game if you then want to deny the player the ability to use airstrikes later on? :confused:

I'm not saying it is a bad idea but there seems to be so little substance to the suggestion. :( I'd like to see you flesh it out a little. :)

PS. Don't think airstrikes are possible to add through mods. You would need access to the sourcecode then and I don't think Goldhawk will be releasing that. :(

Edited by Gorlom
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Well, to entertain this stuff further...

To establish air superiority to get your dropship to the site, you'd need to have some escorts. Without escorts, perhaps it would be ok in the beginning of the game where there aren't many ufos about, but it would still carry risk. Later in the game with more ufos flying about, including alien fighters and the like, escorts would be pretty much necessary... and/or some stealthy features that maybe could be researched (Well, helicopters are low flying enough to be pretty stealthy anyways... but I don't know what tech these aliens would have to detect stuff). If your dropship task force is intercepted, your escorts could combat the intercepting craft, assuming your task force is detected by the aliens and they decide to do something about it.

In order to have airstrikes being an option during an engagement, one would have to send appropriate things along with the task force sent to whatever site, or have them meet up at the same time at the site. Like, for example, one could send some attack helicopters or other attack aircraft along with the dropship, much like one could assign escorts. That would allow a window of opportunity during the engagement for a soldier (through some clever interface) to be able to call in some air support dependent on the armaments, fuel situation, etc. of whatever support craft. If perhaps the helicopters or other support craft have realistic ranges, this would require one to set up bases (or even aircraft carriers! xD) around the world as staging grounds for such strikes which could be another strategic problem for the player to have to deal with, as the player would have to defend them and provide upkeep (or convince governments or get in good enough standing with them to let you use them). I hope I make some sense.

And maybe during the operation after the dropship lands, if there is enough alien presence in the air... like if your escorts are thwarted but not until your dropship lands... or if the escorts are still fighting or whatever... perhaps the aliens could possibly order some strikes against you, even! I dunno, maybe that would be too out of keeping with the feel of the game... and nothing would keep them from blowing up your helicopter in those cases.

As for what I said about how things might play out later on in a game... I should have phrased it differently. I was sort of thinking of a justification for air support stuff like I mention not being in the game in the first place... but anyway, if it were, the ability of the player to have air support would depend on how well the player manages things. If the player doesn't strategically manage to keep their presence in the air strong enough to make airstrikes possible, then they are SOL. But it wouldn't be impossible, just difficult!

I think this entire suggestion might require too much to be added to the game to make it meaningful and actually work, and it might not be possible to have it such that the original feeling of the game is maintained. But maybe it can be! Do I address your concerns? :D

And about the last thing about provisions probably not being there to mod such stuff in... poopies. You are right. But it is still fun to think about!!! And maybe it could be kludged in using existing game mechanics... or not.

Edited by Andeerz
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All you need really is one function.

You need a weapon that can affect an area but not be dependant on a projectile travelling between the weapon and the target point.

I would personally have it generate a spot on the highest camera level (within an area around the target set by the weapon accuracy?) then fire the actual projectile from there.

If you can add a delay timer to it so the effect can happen when you end turn (like x-com grenade timers) it would be good also.

Then you add a new weapon using this function and call it a laser target designator, an artillery command radio, or whatever.

Your soldier then creeps up onto a building, points a laser at the target (using a whole turn worth of AP) and at the end of the turn there is a big explosion where the spotter designated.

This would obviously have an accuracy attached to it as with any other weapon.

The radio for artillery commands may be tier one with fairly low accuracy and explosive/kinetic damage.

Laser designator could be tier two, also explosive/kinetic damage.

Tier three would be a laser designator but allow you access to plasma damage (due to upgrades to the artillery).

Maybe tier four would have hypervelocity so penetrate buildings etc, or even simply remove the delay between designating the target and the projectile hitting the target due to it's speed.

Making the item large and heavy with limited uses (one unit of ammo, no reload etc) would help to limit how many you use.

The other way to use it would be to add a method of limiting how many of a specific item can be carried on a mission, or how often the item can be used.

Doing it that way would allow a small item, say a radio, to be used to call in a limited number of strikes.

That is more work though for a feature that would only be of use to modders.

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To me it still feels like you are coming at this problem from a realism point of view rather than a game mechanical or design point of view. Like it is more important to mimic a real thing rather than creating a fun mechanic. :S

After you have started the ground battle the geoscape is frozen, stationary and doesn't really matter imo. Yet you talk about maintaining enough air superiority. It feels like you think/know this would be too powerful and is desperately searching for a limitation or drawback (and look to real life to find one) to balance it out.

I'm probably not the best guy to have a discussion or bounce ideas off of since I adamantly advocate screwing realism and/to make sure the mechanic itself is fun. (There are people that means that realism is fun in it self. I'm not one of them and I don't really understand that argument) Hopefully someone with a bit less distaste for gaming realism can come in and discuss with you :)

Edit: Aaah, Gauddlike to the rescue. Much better person to discuss with than me on points of realism vs gamemechanics :) (I get hung up on what I feel is trying to hard to be realistic :P)

Edited by Gorlom
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Yeah the real artillery would be what cleans up the site if you don't do it yourself.

They would just level it and scrape up some alien bits for research afterwards if they can find any.

Assuming you could mobilize such artillery within minutes to an hour from a thousand miles or so away... but you make a good point.

And, to play Devil's advocate... why not have the ability to do such a thing with a distant air/missile/artillery strike if you have the resources and ability if you do not wish to risk your troops or have no reason to obtain more alien tech and stuff in those instances (which would be a rare situation, I'd think!)? Perhaps we could even assume that's what happens to the sites you don't get to in time through the actions of other government military operations... whatever, just brain farting here. :D

As for what Gorlom said...

I'm not advocating realism as much as verisimilitude; cohesiveness in the game universe to make the setting and feeling of the game all the more compelling and immersive. I could play a whole multitude of other games out there with game mechanics almost identical to that of X-com and xenonauts. I choose to play this one because of the interesting setting and feeling of it all, and having things make sense within the context of the game universe is terribly important for me, and I think others, as it is what makes you feel more like you are in the game as opposed to just playing it if that makes any sense. Otherwise, just have abstract shapes representing everything.

There is only so much suspension of disbelief I'm willing to do... and I find it silly that you can have airplanes with ridiculous range and stuff loosely based on real aicraft and their abilities as well as aliens have their ships and them have no impact on what happens on the ground. I can live with it and still enjoy the hell out of the game... but if there is not enough in the setting of the game to give some food for thought (not necessarily an outright explanation... those aren't fun) as for a plausible reason for such tools such as airstrikes to not to be useful, I think it detracts from the game setting which is just as important (at least to me) as game mechanics, as, again, I could be playing other games similar in that regard.

At the end of the day, though, I can definitely live without indirect fire support in the game... it will stick out like a sore thumb in terms of discontinuity in the game universe to me, but the game will still almost be as immersive and awesome as it can be. I just really like games that make you feel like you are in that game's world as much if not more so than making you feel like you are playing a game.

Edited by Andeerz
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I had to look up what verisimilitude meant. I like that word. Don't think I could get away with using it though. :P

Anyway: one in universe explanation for why airstrikes aren't in the game is that pilots obviously are selectively blind whenever they get close to crash sites or terror missions. wouldn't look very good if your airstrike landed squarely on the civvies instaed of the aliens just because the pilot closed his eyes when he got close / under the radar. (some people have pet peeves about black fow).

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Airstrikes just don't make sense to me in this context.

Rather than trying to find reasons why they shouldn't be in I find myself struggling to find reasons why they should be there.

Your squad is generally being deployed to prevent property damage, loss of human life, and to recover as much alien technology as possible.

Airstrikes and artillery barrages wouldn't be conducive to any of those objectives.

They are a blunt instrument when you are attempting surgery.

I could see mortars having a place as they aren't any more powerful than the rocket launchers used by your squad to deal with vehicles.

The mortar would still feel out of place though to me.

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Good points, Gauddlike. But there ARE points to doing such things. if I want to level or swiss-cheese a building containing some aliens that are getting in the way of me getting the technology I want to recover which is valuable for the survival of the human race, then it could make sense (so in those cases it WOULD be conducive to the objectives of your Xenonauts), civilian casualties and slight lowering in standing with governments be damned. If I decide to accept the civilian and political costs, so be it.

But, I see your point, and makes me able to accept the decisions made by the creators of the game a bit more...

However, I still think my suggestion would be a great addition to the game which would add to immersion into the game setting as well as make the strategic and tactical aspects of the game more challenging, fun, and engaging.

Also, I completely disagree with the developers of the game saying that implementing such features would reduce tension provided aliens are able to use similar tactics and have effective balancing countermeasures. And not having the blaster bomb, I can agree with at least for the human side (maybe certain aspects of the computer-related tech couldn't be reverse engineered with cold-war-era tech). Aliens having it might be interesting, though. :P

Edited by Andeerz
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for airstrikes it would be neet if you could only get them after gaining air superiority over a site(your fighters drive off or kill any supporting ufos) if you fail you could end up with the enemy haveing air support or neutral skies if your fighters forced the enemy to withdraw due to damage .

the strikes them selves should have a delay, say you designate a strike on your turn it will happen ether at the end of the enemy turn or half way through there turn(after they move half there forces)

the strike can be ether missiles (if the aircraft have any left) or strafeing with there guns.

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But there ARE points to doing such things. if I want to level or swiss-cheese a building containing some aliens that are getting in the way of me getting the technology I want to recover which is valuable for the survival of the human race, then it could make sense (so in those cases it WOULD be conducive to the objectives of your Xenonauts), civilian casualties and slight lowering in standing with governments be damned. If I decide to accept the civilian and political costs, so be it.

You're not just risking "civilian and political costs" but the annihilation of your soldiers.

And if you are using super-artillery that can target a single house, then the aliens should get KEW and get to drop rocks on your team from orbit. A clean weapon that turns everything it hits into a crater and small bits of glowing wreckage.

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if I want to level or swiss-cheese a building containing some aliens that are getting in the way of me getting the technology I want to recover which is valuable for the survival of the human race, then it could make sense (so in those cases it WOULD be conducive to the objectives of your Xenonauts), civilian casualties and slight lowering in standing with governments be damned. If I decide to accept the civilian and political costs, so be it.

That would be one of the uses for C4.

A controlled and perfectly placed detonation to level the offending building with reduced potential collateral damage compared to an airstrike, mortar barrage etc.

There is a reason demolition companies use placed explosives rather than artillery.

Although that would be an interesting alternative next time they want to take down a tower block in the middle of a built up area!

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Hello,

been away doing other stuff. reading this about air support.

I would point out the iceland incident, this should make 2 things..

those area is "blown out... vaporized". I suspect general-commander is not going to order air strikes or air support, lest risk wrath of the nation complaining, hey you knew the iceland, and you destroyed my people's prime estate. that money instead go to my country's counselors, civil engineering, working people to clean up your mess.

the second, how do you know if alien is gonna trigger the "reaction". thus cheaper to send in or sneak in only 1 chinook, whereas we could have sent in 100 chinooks with 50 armored cars and 800 soldiers. Alien are smart fella (they built those ships; engineers, designers, test pilots. enuff said) well if they saw that many chinooks, wouldn't they just let go the safeties, at least they take out 100 and let next wave have clean "way" into invading the globe.

R

Edited by rynait
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I'm of the mind that if you get support weapons then the aliens should have something at least as good, if not better.

Likewise, if you get airstrikes against landed craft, expect a sneaky bombing run on the landing site that your Chinook has just set down on.

Now, imagine you've just ended your second turn and instead of Hidden Movement, there's a picture of a crater where the site was. Does that improve your enjoyment of the game? Probably not, but it would be a fair balance to the suggested improvements on the Xenonauts side. So, I think such things should be left alone.

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