Vehicle discussion: Thoughts on the new "buffed" Xeno vehicles

[StellarRat]

We haven't had a thread specifically about them for a while. I've only gotten to the Hunter w/heavy pulse laser so far. My thoughts on it:

1. Way better than the old one. Actually quite useful.

2. Needs more MG ammo, at least 50% more.

3. MG accuracy seems a bit low to me, especially considering the lack of ammo.

4. When equipped with the heavy pulse laser is quite impressive. But again, might need a bit more ammo.

Edited September 3, 2013 by StellarRat

[lemm]

I think they're good now, but aliens armed with plasma rifles need to start shooting at them instead of running from them.

[StellarRat]

I think they're good now, but aliens armed with plasma rifles need to start shooting at them instead of running from them.

Yeah, it's a confirmed bug now. I'm sure it will be fixed fairly soon.

[Josip Broz Tito]

I feel the pulse laser ammo is about equivalent to 2 soldiers holding the maximum Alenium rockets. At the most, maybe 2 more shots would be good to add.

[StellarRat]

I feel the pulse laser ammo is about equivalent to 2 soldiers holding the maximum Alenium rockets. At the most, maybe 2 more shots would be good to add.

What about the MG ammo?

[Ishantil]

I think you should triple the ammunition on both weapons. A vehicle shouldn't run out of ammunition for its weapon in a skirmish.

There's really no reason why enough ammunition couldn't be carried. Hell, it's only a .30 caliber machine gun. It really should be an M2. With 250 rounds of ammunition.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Ishantil

[StellarRat]

I think you should triple the ammunition on both weapons. A vehicle shouldn't run out of ammunition for its weapon in a skirmish.

There's really no reason why enough ammunition couldn't be carried. Hell, it's only a .30 caliber machine gun. It really should be an M2. With 250 rounds of ammunition.

I totally agree with your assessment. What about the laser equipped version, more ammo? Also, have you used anything besides the Hunter yet?

[GizmoGomez]

Change the name to .50 cal M2, and make the ammo 250. Sounds good to me.

.30 cal is pansy anyway.

[Josip Broz Tito]

The MG needs ammo equivalent to what 2 infantry machine-gunners could use.

As for pulse laser= it only needs ammo equivalent to what 2x rocket troops could carry. If you go much beyond that= vehicles become far better than infantry considering how powerful the pulse laser onwards are.

With the pulse and up, you're already getting much larger line of sight and the ability to fire twice in a round for high AOE damage. I've never been able to get an infantry rocketeer with high enough TU's to fire it twice. I feel people aren't realizing the power of these weapons.

I do support co-axial scatter-lasers etc for the scimitar and whatever the hovertank is called. It's nice to have the option to not destroy equipment, or to suppress rather than annihilate.

[StellarRat]

Change the name to .50 cal M2, and make the ammo 250. Sounds good to me.

.30 cal is pansy anyway.

You have to at least double the damage if it was a .50! And turn on hyper-velocity too because there is next to nothing on our maps that can stop a .50. Then it would be a death ray! LOL!

[EchoFourDelta]

The funny thing is that in the weapon select they use a picture of an M2 modified for coaxial use, call it a .50 in the sound files, and in the game's data everywhere else; the only place it's a ".30 cal" is the "vehicle features" sidebar and the vehicle bay artwork of the Hunter.

(This is sidestepping the discussion they use a 7.62x51mm machine gun for the troops individual carry; 7.62 NATO is technically a .30 caliber round, but the ".30 cal" that's commonly called such long since fell out of military use. A lot of this probably boils down to the devs not being that familiar/not doing that much research on the real-world elements included in the game.)

Edited September 3, 2013 by EchoFourDelta

[Ishantil]

If you are using a machine gun as your primary weapon, make it a .50. If you are using a machine gun as a secondary, an M240 will be fine.

And I said triple the ammunition for both the laser cannon and the machine gun.

[StellarRat]

If you are using a machine gun as your primary weapon, make it a .50. If you are using a machine gun as a secondary, an M240 will be fine.

And I said triple the ammunition for both the laser cannon and the machine gun.

I think that might a be a bit much. I still think the player should have to decide if something warrants using the big guns. The laser is mucho powerful! I would think tripling that would be way OP.

[Ishantil]

I can't bring more ammunition for my vehicle. It's absurd it has 8 shots or whatever. Perhaps doubling the ammunition would be sufficient?

[Josip Broz Tito]

Gotta ask: have you used the pulse laser? If you have one by the first terror mission= it usually makes it a cakewalk. Those 8 shots will kill 6-8 aliens if used correctly. Plus you can fire the thing twice per turn. Whatever you shoot probably won't live.

If you add more ammo to it in the amounts you suggest= you can clear most of a terror mission with 1 vehicle. That's plain-out bad for gameplay.

The reason I keep bringing up 2 infantrymen is that each vehicle replaces 2 soldiers and has to be compared and balanced compared to them. Reason I advocate more MG ammo= it doesn't compare well to two MG infantry.

Since the pulse laser is essentially a fancy rocket launcher, you have to compare it to it's equivalent in infantry: 2 rocket infantry w/ alenium rockets. In addition, you have to factor in the extra sight range vehicles have as well as their ability to fire 2x per turn with no need to reload.

You can't give the vehicle the same payload that 2x rocket infantry can carry because then the vehicle is always the better choice since it can see further, and doesn't need to reload.

Look at vehicles compared to the rest of the arsenal, rather than in a vacuum.

[Elydo]

The vehicle doesn't get experience though. Killing an enemy with a vehicle means one of your guys hasn't gotten that kill.

[Max_Caine]

Having played with vehicles a lot, I agree mostly with JBT's analysis. However, I would argue that in a standard mission with 1 MG vehicle and 6 soliders it's fairly unlikely that you'll get through all the vanilla MG ammo because the soliders are much better at killing aliens than the vehicle is. Generally, a round of shooting with an MG Hunter plays out like the Mos Eisley hangar escape scene, with lots of sound and light but very little effect. Then Cool Hand Luke comes along and steals the kill right under the Hunter's nose.

[Elydo]

I find the opposite, my scout car has slaughtered over half an alien crew on many occasions whilst my soldiers are still moving into firing positions. Typically enemies that aren't in cover mind you.

My first terror mission on the other hand, I was finding the MG very useful for suppressing the main block of enemies, right up until it ran out of ammo and promptly became useless. I haven't taken it on terror missions since and find them much easier with the two extra men.

[Josip Broz Tito]

MG is fine, but the pulse laser (and to a lesser extent, the rockets) change the game. Pulse laser shots annihilate/one-shot caesan, sebillian, and andron warriors.

Use the pulse laser for a while and see if your opinion doesn't change. If you know when to take the shot, pulse laser vehicles can get a kill with almost every one. That's one vehicle capable of killing 6-8 aliens on its own. That's the power it has.

At the early-mid part of the game when terror missions show up: the pulse laser is your go-to for getting rid of threats. It doesn't matter whether they get exp or not. It's not really even a disadvantage since you'll be selling it once you acquire scimitars.

At that point the pulse-laser is an alternative to having 2x rocket infantry. Right now you don't get the ability to be in two different maps spots or use cover to well in exchange for a longer sight range, no-reload needed vehicle with firepower equivalent to alenium rockets. The advantage the infantry should have is higher total rocket capacity, since they can only fire every other round, can't illuminate the dark, and have shorter sight range.

If you take the time to look at the pros, cons and opportunity costs: explosive weapon vehicles need a limitation to balance them against their alternative. Limited ammo is about the only thing that works.

If you reduce pulse laser damage in exchange for ammo= you've made terror missions harder in the early-mid game. No, keeping the damage the same is critical. Thus, ammo must be kept around its present level.

The reason I'm ok with coaxial guns for scimitars and up= at a certain point in midgame it will almost always be more worth it to have 2x infantry versus a vehicle. Added firing options helps make vehicles more versatile past that point.

[Ishantil]

Interesting analysis. I haven't gotten to the new pulse laser cannon. I'm looking forward to it, though. I will re-evaluate it once I get to it.

The previous laser cannon was underwhelming, so that's probably what I'm remembering.

[Skvid]

Whats the point in having a discussion about the unit that's currently severely bugged?

[StellarRat]

Whats the point in having a discussion about the unit that's currently severely bugged?

It's not bugged as far as I know. The alien AI is bugged. We can certainly judge the firepower and mobility without someone shooting at it. The only thing we can't judge is the protection and we do have history about that too because the aliens were shooting at them after the armor was upgraded.

Anyway back to the discussion: The pulse laser has 10 shots (or it did last night anyway.) That seems sufficient to me. I still think the MG either needs more ammo or an accuracy boost. To me it seems substantially under-ranged. So, either we need better accuracy and longer range or more ammo to make up for it.

Edited September 4, 2013 by StellarRat

[GizmoGomez]

I'd even say give it both. Slightly better accuracy, a longer range (longer than an LMG, maybe a tad less than a precision rifle?), and more ammo.

[StellarRat]

I'd even say give it both. Slightly better accuracy, a longer range (longer than an LMG, maybe a tad less than a precision rifle?), and more ammo.

That would be fine by me. They are ridiculously short ranged right now. You have to be one tile away from an alien to get over 50%.

[GizmoGomez]

Yeah, rather ridiculous. I mean, it's a stable mount, right? You'd have better accuracy than any rifle we have.