Cover mechanics - using corners and obstacles

[Leonidas]

Hello all,

I've been playing v19 stable for a bit now and have been having a lot of fun but it's offset with a lot of frustration.

One of my main tropes is with how using cover works currently in the game. In short, it doesn't, really.

What i'm talking about:

Position a soldier around a corner, using the cover it provides. Try to shoot around the corner and...you cant.

You will need to move out of cover, leaving your soldier completely open to fire, try to survive the reaction fire, shoot back, try to survive more reaction fire, move back and turn around again - wasting valuable time units in doing so.

Result: the perceived tactical advantage is not there, my expectation is not met and instead I have to adjust my intuitive, natural expectation of cover to the abstract interpretation in the game. Immersion broken, frustration gained.

Note that the same is true for certain objects which you could perceivable shoot over or objects you would think you could shoot around - such as when you are crouching in front of a bench.

The final pet-peeve is when these obstacles are actually other troops. You should be able to shoot over the guy crouching in front of you. Perhaps you should even be able to shoot around the guy right in front of you to some extent.

Suggested solution:

I'm unsure as to how the LOS / trajectory works, but, assuming you use a ray cast, a simple suggestion might be to have several origin points for this ray cast:

one straight from the regular muzzle position ( as is now )

one from a position the muzzle would be when leaning around a corner - both to left and right

if currently crouching - one from a position the muzzle would be when shooting over an object

Choose the ray with the highest accuracy.

note: the leaning-around-corner origin points would also require a crouched version to shoot around your cover object while crouching

[GizmoGomez]

Leaning isn't going to make it in the game, Chris has said so.

If I remember correctly it was because it allows you to fire without taking as much risk. Also, if we got that, the aliens would need to get it as well for it to be fair. Do you want aliens firing from behind walls at you?

You can shoot over a crouched soldier as long as he/she is crouched in a directly adjacent tile. Also, the shooter has to be standing up, otherwise you'll just shoot your buddy in the face.

[EchoFourDelta]

Yeah, apparently rounds can't pass through a tile with an actor in it without actually hitting the actor, due to how things are currently written, so no shots over someone's head who's ducking, or flying past them.

[kabill]

I think the current system for shooting from corners etc. is fine anyway. Fair enough, I've no actual experience, but unless you are going to shoot blindly, I don't see how you could *not* come out of cover in order to shoot around a corner since otherwise you can't really aim or even hold the gun properly*. So receiving reaction fire while you're out of cover shooting seems to me a real risk of shooting from that kind of position.

The only problem I have with the extant system is that being behind a corner is all-or-nothing in terms of the cover it gives: either it blocks LOS completely (and therefore the shot is impossible) or you have enough of an angle to take a shot and therefore being behind a corner offers no protection at all (when in reality part of the target would still be obscured). It's tolerable once you know this, though, and I can't imagine how difficult it would be to implement a solution.

[lemm]

i'd like the ability to throw grenades around the corner

[EchoFourDelta]

I don't see how you could *not* come out of cover in order to shoot around a corner since otherwise you can't really aim or even hold the gun properly*. So receiving reaction fire while you're out of cover shooting seems to me a real risk of shooting from that kind of position.

Well, it's usually done by leaning slightly to the left or leaning slightly to the right, exposing part of your arm and a portion of your head while keeping about 90% of your body behind the solid object you're hiding behind.

[kabill]

Surely that doesn't allow the same level of accuracy, though? (And, presumably, would be impossible with heavy weapons).

[Leonidas]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the replies!

I agree it shouldn't be a case of just getting a shot at the full amount of accuracy - some penalty would need to be incurred.

As for firing without taking much risk; that's exactly the point, isn't it? It creates tactical advantages you will want to evaluate and use - doing so efficiently and seeing your plan come together is what makes a tactical game fun!

I would expect no less than the aliens using it themselves as well, that's the extra layer of tactical gameplay again.

On top of that - this is the exact interaction that most of the fences you can hide behind and shoot over offer right now - its already in the game, just not for corners and some other obstacles. And it works great there. I'm actively hopping from fence to fence, rock to rock.

With Chris saying it won't be in the game the point does become somewhat moot, though. It's too bad the LOS system was implemented in such a manner. As game developer myself with a basic understanding of the sub-systems involved i have to say my fingers are itching to dive into it. Will take a look at the modding possibilities once i finish a game

Loving the discussion, please proceed =)

[EchoFourDelta]

Surely that doesn't allow the same level of accuracy, though? (And, presumably, would be impossible with heavy weapons).

It's actually a lot steadier than firing from the offhand (an unsupported firing position, meaning you're simply holding the weapon up under your own power, with nothing to lean or brace against), and much safer when it comes to return fire. Any time you can lay your body against a solid object - as opposed to standing there and supporting the weapon with only your arms - you're going to have a much more stable position, even if it's simply laying the receiver against the side of whatever cover you've got and leaning into it. This can make also make firing higher-caliber automatic weapons much more manageable when it would be impractical to use the built-in bipod of a weapon like the FN MAG medium machine gun we see in game (this usually isn't an issue with automatic weapons firing pistol cartridges - or to use the in-game example of the M16A1 - intermediate-caliber rifle munitions; their recoil during automatic fire is controllable enough by experienced, well-trained personnel for the weapon to remain accurate out to a considerable range). Even when you're firing a small-caliber or low-recoil weapon, the shooter bracing their body against a solid object in some manner reduces the amount of small muscle movements your body is translating to the weapon as you attempt to bring it and keep it on target; those great big structural muscles you use when you bring a weapon up and hold it for any extended period of time at all in a firing position aren't that conducive to the fine manipulation and control needed for what we're attempting to use them for.

You can see an example of this by trying something perhaps in your own backyard: grab up a meter-long plank or scrap of wood if you have one handy and hold it up in a position mimicking holding a rifle; you'll see how quickly it starts swaying, even if you've got a strong upper body; after this, try leaning against a corner, pressing the side of the board at the midpoint, or the forward third against the corner with you behind the corner, as if you're taking cover, and lean into the direction of the corner so that your body weight is pressing the side of the board against the structure. The tension of your body weight fixing it sideways against the wall removes some degree of the force your arm muscles have to supply to keep it in position, and removes a good deal of the tension the larger muscles impart in direct opposition to the smaller ones used for fine manipulation of the weapon (board) you're attempting to hold steady.

Simply standing there and firing the weapon the way you see our guys doing it in-game is the least accurate way (and most dangerous way, considering the environment they're in) to operate any of those weapons.

Edited August 27, 2013 by EchoFourDelta

[Ishantil]

EFD is exactly right.

[Leonidas]

I stand corrected! Well put.

Though an accuracy bonus would, perhaps, be a bit too much gameplay-wise. Never hurts to test test it though, provided any of this ever finds its way into the game.

[kabill]

Fair enough - thanks for the comprehensive reply! (I like these forums; I learn things).

[GizmoGomez]

(I like these forums; I learn things).

I know, right?