Sight Range

[Ishantil]

So...the whole 16 (12 on a diagonal I guess?) square sight range thing is...not doing it for me. X-COM had a sight range of 20 squares, which meant that you could see a fair ways.

In a terror mission, I can barely make out the building across the street. Much less the Androns there.

The game is encouraging me to use spotters, which means they end up dead. Androns miss a whole hell of a lot more than I do.

So I was thinking that there should be binoculars, that change your vision mode to a much narrower cone, but twice as long?

Maybe the same thing for a sniper scope?

My current solution is to saturate the area with alenium missiles.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ishantil

[kabill]

I'm unsure where I sit with this.

On the one hand, from the position of realism, the sight range is silly.

From the position of gameplay, I'm not sure it is a bad thing. Since shooting at extreme range isn't massively accurate, a longer sight range (assuming a similar increase for aliens, obviously!) is probably going to advantage the player, since the sooner the player knows where the aliens are, the better they can plan (while AI doesn't plan!).

I think a longer sight range could work if supported with AI which can make good use of it/counters it and map design which restricts LOS enough that it is 'artificially' reduced in many places. Don't know whether that would be the case at the moment.

As for binoculars/sniper scope - personally I don't think these are good additions, since they'd discourage risk-taking by allowing you to camp and search areas from afar. Furthermore, they would extend your sight range far beyond the aliens, allowing you to spot and snipe at them with practically no risk to your own soldiers.

[Ishantil]

Yeah, those are good points. After taking last night's terror mission into account, I'm also not sure how I feel about it. I think the game works pretty well within tight confines, bases, or maps with lots of cover. Fighting at night feels like fighting at night.

With open maps, where it's important to be able to find your enemy, it seems weird.

[lightgemini]

I tested with sight range time ago and made a mod for it. Stats have changed a lot since then but I can tell you some key points that became clear after that. Using a sight range of 27 as a base with aliens getting mostly 30-35:

-Combat feeling was awesome. It first seemed to help the aliens a lot since more scattered (those days) aliens could see you and join the fight (now they do fine, with more sight it could be epic).

-Reaction fire became a threat instead of a main source of xenonauts deaths, since spoting took place outside weps effective range and shots were less accurate and hit for less damage.

-Making contact didnt start (mostly) a deadly firefight since it started out of range giving more time to manuver under fire,flank etc.(with improved accuracy now it will be more dangerous than before).

-Less smart AI and accur. made results very variable. Sometimes aliens would get a nice deployment and wipe the floor with you (in those days that was unexpected), other times they could not help themselves as you murdered them with heavy LMG&rocket fire from far away (this should not happen that often with actual changes).

-The great options the player have in weapons outgunned (most of the times) the aliens wich should be the other way around. ALiens needed more powerful and specialised weapons (now they partly have that). I ended boosting their armour and weapon damage/range values wich helped lessen the problem. With the current AI and stats it should play way better than in those times, but Im sure long range still helps more the player so aliens need MOAR firepower, not just rifles with more damage, they would need more "big guns that makes things go in a big boom" so the player advantage in superior planning/manouvering becomes a desperate need to stay alive not a unbalancing factor.

But to make thiings short, more sight range is cool but needs its own balance to really be playable to the level you would enjoy to play.

[Ishantil]

Yeah, I realized that when I was thinking about it that it would radically alter the balance needs for the game.

Perhaps it should remain in a mod. The devs are doing enough balancing as it is, without needing to rework the whole system. Terror missions feel really silly, though. "Wait, what do you mean my sniper can't see the guy across the street?!?"

[StellarRat]

Yeah, I realized that when I was thinking about it that it would radically alter the balance needs for the game.

Perhaps it should remain in a mod. The devs are doing enough balancing as it is, without needing to rework the whole system. Terror missions feel really silly, though. "Wait, what do you mean my sniper can't see the guy across the street?!?"

Longer sight ranges would definitely cause a rebalance to be made. The new buffed up vehicles would be very powerful with longer sight ranges.

[Ishantil]

Notably, cleaing a building with 4 Androns huddled inside is not fun. My solution was to level the building, really. Brought two rocket launchers to the terror site.

[StellarRat]

I don't think I've ever had a situation where there was more than one alien in a building, interesting. That's why I've been complaining about the AI not using buildings for cover much.

[Ishantil]

Well, most of the populace was dead. All but one, so I wasn't really that concerned. I blew out the walls with a few rockets, then snuck a guy up behind the bus to spot the two Androns remaining. Took them out with a sniper rifle. Took a while. But I brought lots of ammo, including extra rockets (which my assault guys were carrying).

[StellarRat]

Were they in the grocery store in the NW corner? The last ones always seem to think that's a good place to retreat to.

[Ishantil]

It was an office building across the street from that. Apparently they liked the fluffy chairs.

[StellarRat]

It was an office building across the street from that. Apparently they liked the fluffy chairs.

"I'm sorry the server appears to be down right now. AHHHH! OH Sh^$! <phew> <phew>"

Ah, I think I know where you're talking about. It's between the furniture store and the grocery on the North edge, right? I've never had more than one alien in there. Lots outside though. I find the Androns tend to come to you so I just setup around the choppa and start shooting them as they advance. It's particulary handy to be able to duck the around back side of the helo and reload my rockets in a safe place.

Edited August 26, 2013 by StellarRat

[Ishantil]

Yeah, I had one of my rocket guys in the Chinook for almost the whole game, pointing his launcher at that damned building filled with Androns.

By the time I was done, there were 4 smoking corpses in that building. And one dead Major outside (two shots, square to the chest, I was pissed).

Let's say I am very glad that my next round will all have laser weapons. You can't kill Androns with ballistic rifles very well. Although the sniper rifle is good enough.

Which is why I brought two launchers and 14 Alenium rockets.

[StellarRat]

Yeah, killing them with anything besides sniper or rockets is tough. I've had OK luck with the LMG at close ranges. It'll definitely make short work of them if you can get with 5 or 10 tiles if you have a decent gunner.

[crusherven]

I don't think I've ever had a situation where there was more than one alien in a building, interesting. That's why I've been complaining about the AI not using buildings for cover much.

I'm wondering if it's a species thing. That had been my experience, but today playing the latest build I've seen a number of caesans in buildings. In one case, I found two in an office building on a warehouse map, and one of them even ran to a more interior room when I lit them up.

As to the OP, I'm on the fence on this one. I think the current sight ranges feel pretty good in general for gameplay, although the mod mentioned sounds pretty interesting as well.

[Josip Broz Tito]

The current sight ranges might be an incentive to always use at least one vehicle if you want to reduce troop exposure. Or you're allowed to bring two troops (w/ more firepower) at the cost of higher exposure.

Makes sense to me as it is, but I can see how the low sight range to scale could be irritating.

[lightgemini]

The current sight ranges might be an incentive to always use at least one vehicle if you want to reduce troop exposure. Or you're allowed to bring two troops (w/ more firepower) at the cost of higher exposure.

Makes sense to me as it is, but I can see how the low sight range to scale could be irritating.

If you have long range sight and the aliens do have some cool weapons to lay fiery plasma death from afar, you would love a tank to deliver long range retaliation while your troops run for cover "screaming little girls" style, or just flank or turn around entirely. It would actually makes more sense than having a tank advancing "blind" and shoting at ranges it would actually have a hard time shooting at.

Weapons/tanks roles and effectiveness balances the playing conditions/rules more than the other way around.

As for buildings, recently in a light scout industrial map I had 2 Sebs retreat from my troops and they got inside an office building and trenched there. After blasting 1 of the walls with c4 and firing inside, 1 even retreated to another room in that building. Dont know if they are using buildings on purpose or are just not afraid of entering one if their retreat path happens to cross one. I would bet they do use it on purpose since entering that building didnt seem to be on their way, and looked like they headed there intentionaly.

[Ishantil]

On the other hand, I just had 3 blue shirts run around in the open like idiots. They died. Quickly.