Ground Combat Balance Discussion v19 Experimental Build 7

[EchoFourDelta]

The shotgun's patterning is absolutely nuts. You have be within like five tiles of a target's face to get more than a pellet or two to hit 50% of the time.

[StellarRat]

The shotgun's patterning is absolutely nuts. You have be within like five tiles of a target's face to get more than a pellet or two to hit 50% of the time.

That about 50 yards on the compressed range scale. Seems right to me based on Chris's comment that this a "blunderbuss" type weapon. I think you'll have to image it as a sawed-off shotgun, not a standard police/military weapon.

[EchoFourDelta]

What compressed range scale? Like, you can pack your entire bunch of soldiers elbow to elbow in storefronts in the towns, and eight guys are nut to butt with each other in the Charlie.

Guess somebody'd better paint Chris some sprites and assets up for the sawed-off.

Edited August 17, 2013 by EchoFourDelta

[GizmoGomez]

I'd suggest tightening up the spread; if it's looking ridiculous, then it is ridiculous.

[Terradive]

I hate the reaction fire. Also the attempt at fixing door abuse failed. On a light scout line up 3 wide in the first rank and have the third man diagonally open the door.

[StellarRat]

I think the revised Hunter MG needs a buff. I fired it 8 times at various ranges and only got one suppression and two actual hits and those were when I got within 4 - 5 tiles. The handheld LMG is far better. Shouldn't it have at least the firepower of two infantry LMGs? A single .30 MG is better than the LMG, but this thing is supposed to have two of them! Plus they're vehicle mounted and that should make them more accurate on top of everything else. I'm happy with the new speed and protection, but the Hunter seems to be equipped with a paintball gun.

P.S. - I'm revising my opinion. The MG is OK. I must have had just horrible luck the first time I used it. The next time it was good enough. Two kills and I probably could have had more had I decided to use the Hunter on some of the shots.

Edited August 19, 2013 by StellarRat

[StellarRat]

I'd suggest tightening up the spread; if it's looking ridiculous, then it is ridiculous.

Looks OK to me. Works better than the old shotgun too.

[StellarRat]

BTW sight range seems be working correctly now. But suppressed aliens are still firing full bursts at my guys. Is it supposed to be that way?

[Max_Caine]

Chris said that the aliens are still "cheating" with their TUs, but GJ is on the case.

[lightgemini]

I have played through light scouts with not much of a challenge yet, and at some point decided to completely skip them. Then played the first normal scout mission against sebs, and oh man I got wiped out entirely . My usual tactics + artic map proved wrong for the new fixed AI, and I found myself retreating from 4-5 seb guards down to the chinook, with the little b*****ds chasing me all the way there. They really proved to be very aggressive and even formed a "battle line" to engage me wich worked awsome for them, and all that took me by surprise and paid hard having the wrong deployment for the situation. Im impressed so far.

As for the Hunter MG I suggest increasing the shot count to 10 to account for it having 2 MGs not one, and at least doubling the ammo and increasing range. This should make it a fine platform for suppresion and overall support, contrary to the more "hunter killer" role it has with rockets.

[MotherAce]

Loving almost every change to the game in this build. Been awesome. Smoke Grenades in particular are just pitch perfect. Early on, I regularly lose 1-3 soldiers, unlike none in the previous build, which is much more interesting. Met 9 aliens in my very first mission this time around, and it decimated half my team. Epic! Its roughly how these missions should go with a novice squad

The two minor hiccups:

-Flashbangs. As mentioned by others, these are underpowered now, and you cant incapacitate a light scout interior with them, which makes them in effect useless. Still, since aliens seems to cheat with their TUs from suppression, and its a work in progress, not even sure this is an issue worth mentioning. Assume it will be ironed out

-Smoke grenades triggering explosive equipment on the ground. Or whatever causes the immediate destruction of half my team on some missions. I often find myself dropping a smoke in front of a UFO entrance, and I believe this is an effect of the nade' exploding a possible alien grenade on the ground. Whatever it is, a visual indicator would be helpful if the game believes throwing a smoke into an area might cause the detonation of an object there.

[kabill]

On shotguns: Having played some more, I'm less convinced now by shotguns relative to the other weapons. I think is because, with the pellet change, they're being penalised twice for damage and accuracy.

In terms of accuracy, they were already less accurate than the assault rifle (at least, they don't have an aimed shot) and had a much shorter range. Now, with the multiple pellets, the chance of causing a hit that is actually at full strength is less than it was, since there's more chances to miss. It's possible that accuracy is slightly up in that you can get a partial hit, but it doesn't feel like that playing.

In terms of damage, shotguns suffer twice from armour compared with the assault rifle. The AR has armour mitigation 10, which is enough to breach or halve most aliens' armour values. Not only does the shotgun not have any armour mitigation, but the damage is spread out across three different hits, which (armour degradation aside) is tripling the armour value of alien targets.

The armour issue is actually a big issue for aliens too. I just completed a mission against some Sibellians with the new alien plasma shotgun (don't actually know what weapon it was, but the shotgun equivalent). My guys in Wolf armour were basically immune - I took maybe five-six (partial) hits from them with barely a scratch. If those aliens would have been armed with plasma rifles instead, they'd have probably killed someone.

So, I wonder whether either rifles should not get armour mitigation, or whether shotguns should get some to make up for the weakness of multiple small shots.

[Josip Broz Tito]

Nerfing one thing to make a bad thing look better in comparison is not the right decision. The alien plasma shotguns would still be poor, and rifles would become useless compared to sniper rifles and machine guns.

Shotguns do need a buff, whether in pellet count like Ishantil is experimenting with, a TU reduction, armor pen, etc: or a combo of all of the above. Right now, stun batons are the superior option for up close...which is silly.

[GizmoGomez]

I like the idea of increasing pellet count and increasing the weapon accuracy. If there's to be a significant spread, then we need the weapon itself to be at least as accurate as the rifle.

[Diavlo]

Hi everyone

My first post, I have played some time ago and now returned to game.

Tried that V7 build, my first mission on downed light scout and 9 sebilians inside that little thing, how did they manage to fit there, and survive that crash.

What is funny 7 of them were defending crash site and only 2 were out there searching for my team and killing civilians.

I'm not saying its good or bad, I'm just wondering if its normal.

Because it's pretty much something different from I what got used to.

[Ol' Stinky]

I like the idea of increasing the pellet count more, even if that means a bit of a damage reduction. It certainly looks very cool to have a whole load of 'em firing out per blast.

I went with a couple of jackal armours in late-ish September. Am I the only one? With the unreliability of riot shields in the face of higher accuracy, the higher numbers of aliens in lightscouts and A.I. tweaks, I've been feeling the pressure more than in previous 19.x builds. 19.6, I got through the first two months without a single casualty. 19.7, I had three deaths in September alone, and only one of those due to a bug.

Hi everyone

My first post, I have played some time ago and now returned to game.

Tried that V7 build, my first mission on downed light scout and 9 sebilians inside that little thing, how did they manage to fit there, and survive that crash.

What is funny 7 of them were defending crash site and only 2 were out there searching for my team and killing civilians.

I'm not saying its good or bad, I'm just wondering if its normal.

Because it's pretty much something different from I what got used to.

Sometimes, they seem to fall back to the UFO and defend it from the outside. I've had a bunch of battles where they seem to have done that.

[StellarRat]

Chris said that the aliens are still "cheating" with their TUs, but GJ is on the case.

Still huh? Well, this is my new "most annoying bug". Makes the aliens OP IMO specially now that they're "smarter".

[Josip Broz Tito]

I restarted my game and rushed production of jackal armor: HUGE difference compared to assault shields. Takes a good chunk out of the many plasma pistol bolts I'm getting shot at me, and makes rifles semi-survivable.

New hunter feels right. I have no complaints about the machine gun: It hits often enough to get the job done.

I changed my playstyle from mostly riflemen and machine-gunners w/ one shotgun to: 1 hunter (MG), 1 machine gun, 2 snipers, rest riflemen (all w/ jackal). This has worked out great and I can usually avoid wounds.

UFO Breaching: I open the door w/ machine gun fire from the vehicle and infantry w/ my troops far back from the door. I then use the vehicle to pop into sight, spot, then unload w/ my infantry machinegun and snipers. Keeps my troops safe and I don't have to blow up equipment.

When corvettes show up I'll be doing something similar. Gonna have to shoot open all of the doors from the outside and see if any aliens pop out. It will take time...but I'm hesitant to send troops up close in this build.

[StellarRat]

Smoke grenades FAR more useful now. Almost required if you have to enter a UFO. Also, breaching the UFO doors with C4 is my standard tactic now. Two charges is usually required. I'll killed several aliens that came to see who rang the bell. ;-)

Tito is right, Jackal is way more useful now. As is the Hunter.

The Sebillians are really dangerous now too. They will charge your troops, pause and fire a burst into them. You definitely need to scout and assign troops to cover the flanks and rear with reaction fire. Or clear well around you main line of advance. I had one come charging around a big rock in the desert, shot one of my guys that was fortunately wearing Jackal. Even with initial reaction fire it took four additional guys to drop him. The alien AI is much improved. I'm pretty worried about what will happen when the grenades come online for them. I've now got to bring my A game to keep the casualties down. Love it.

Overall, I'm really digging the changes in 19.7 I'm starting to get the feeling we getting close to something good (minus the bugs of course.) I'm enjoying 19.7 as much or more than 18.3 and that was also a big step forward.

Edited August 19, 2013 by StellarRat

[cody522]

So far I'm liking the shotgun pellets. I am rarely ever to take out an alien in one shot from any of the starter weapons, but with this change I was able to one-hit a sebillian facing me.

About the AI being smarter, it really surprised me the other day when an alien flanked ME, killed a soldier, then went back into cover.

In the same mission I tried to throw a smoke grenade from inside another smoke cloud, which resulted in a firey explosion. Does anyone know what's up with that?

[StellarRat]

So far I'm liking the shotgun pellets. I am rarely ever to take out an alien in one shot from any of the starter weapons, but with this change I was able to one-hit a sebillian facing me.

About the AI being smarter, it really surprised me the other day when an alien flanked ME, killed a soldier, then went back into cover.

In the same mission I tried to throw a smoke grenade from inside another smoke cloud, which resulted in a firey explosion. Does anyone know what's up with that?

There's a known bug with smoke grenades that's been reported. I'm sure it will get fixed.

[GizmoGomez]

Smoke grenades: Friggin' sweet.

Let me tell you a story:

So, I tossed a smoke into a UFO to keep the enemy from shooting me, because I couldn't hit him.

I hit end turn.

Next turn, I couldn't see where he was. I suddenly got scared.

So, I had one guy with a shotgun (love them) cover a second guy with a rifle while he inched forward into the darkness. He moved up tile by tile.

SURPRISE!!! Plasma pistol burst into his chest!

Shotgun comes out, Blam, Sebillian's down. Markus almost died that day.

TL;DR: Smoke grenades are awesome.

[StellarRat]

Smoke grenades: Friggin' sweet.

Let me tell you a story:

So, I tossed a smoke into a UFO to keep the enemy from shooting me, because I couldn't hit him.

I hit end turn.

Next turn, I couldn't see where he was. I suddenly got scared.

So, I had one guy with a shotgun (love them) cover a second guy with a rifle while he inched forward into the darkness. He moved up tile by tile.

SURPRISE!!! Plasma pistol burst into his chest!

Shotgun comes out, Blam, Sebillian's down. Markus almost died that day.

TL;DR: Smoke grenades are awesome.

Yes, the new smoke mechanic and shotgun are awesome! I didn't realize the consequences of the new smoke until I used it and couldn't see a thing in the UFO anymore (just like you.) I blew the door killing two aliens by the entrance, threw a smoker, then I sent my shotgunner and a riflemen in to clear it. My shotgunner walks up on an alien that was just as blind and one shotted him at point blank then took cover. The following turn an alien walked around his cover and "bumped" into him but didn't have enough TU to fire, wheww... He spins and fires, another one shot. Next round the smoke clears a little and my shotgunner sees an alien on the other side, fires twice wounding it both times. My rifleman runs around the aliens cover and puts a full auto burst into him killing that one. UFO cleared.

[Max_Caine]

Before I had to do a reinstall, I had my first terror mission earlier today. It was all Caesans. I never got further than the dropship landing zone.

Firstly, six Caesans were dotted around the dropship. After some futzy shooting, I either laid down smoke or my ass was dead. So the Caesans decided to corrall the freaking smoke zone and wait for me to come out! I got one guy to peek out and the rest shot through the smoke. So okay, managed to kill about 4 of the Caesans.

Then the second wave turned up.

Six more Caesans had bunched up and came running down, with another two drones for support. Moar smoke and some frantic shooting later, and I had finihsed off the first six and was holding my own against the next.

Then the third wave turned up.

At this point I was thinking "how many of the fuckers are there?". At this point I was starting to run low on smoke, and ye gods, if I didn't have smoke, it would have been GG by now. So, time to unsling the rocket launcher and start sending rockets at the.. oh.. soliders... who can take frag rockets like it was nuthin'.. oh goooood...

Then the fourth wave turned up.

I'm grabbing plasma rifles off the first six by now. I should have done that to start with - alien plasma rifles zap cover, and without cover my laser snipers started nailing the soliders. I'm strategically blocking off areas to Caesans (who won't run through smoke like Sebs would) to defeat the Caesans in detail, but it was super stressful. At the end, 21 aliens had run up to say hello. The AI is so much better. I like how the Caesans formed cohesive groups, but they need to be better at organising themselves. There was too much wasted effort running to and fro without much reason to it.

[Dranak]

I'm torn on hunters now. The new headlights are absolutely amazing, and they are beefy enough to be useful as scouts versus pistol wielding aliens (and I'm rocking armor on all my troops by the time heavier weapons come into play regularly, but I do think the suppression on their guns are a bit low. I have a hunter at each base primarily for night missions now, they're useful enough to justify that cost. Overall they feel pretty good. Worth using, but not an absolute must have (except at night).

Smoke seems overpowered now, but not quite to the degree that would be completely game breaking.

I am absolutely hating the new delayed grenades. I find myself hitting "end turn" a lot more just to get my grenades to go off. And not being able to use grenades to breach walls is frustrating (and reduces tactical options). Now if I use grenades to breach walls (and grenades + propane tanks work well for that), I just open a path for the aliens to use during their turn and take initiative against me.

I think the buff to numbers of aliens on light scouts was overkill. I'd like to see that change reverted, and light scouts get phased out faster.

I'm mostly liking the new farm maps, aside from the bugs that seem to be preventing grenade use on some of the new submaps.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Dranak