V19 Experimental Build 7 available!

[mercy]

Alien bases now include strong locked doors which can be blasted through

This sounds very exciting! Also ablative armor.

[Chris]

Yeah shotguns fire individual pellets that can hit adjacent tiles sometimes. It's more of a blunderbuss effect than a traditional shotgun (though the same enemy can still be hit multiple times due to the multiple bullets), but it's more fun than the previous single slug.

And yes, the penetration of the shotgun has accordingly been reduced. It does a lot of damage but has very little armour penetration.

[Chris]

Also, I've not played much of V19.7 myself but GJ has fixed some of the incorrect inputs into the AI - how exactly has their behavior changed, out of interest? It'd be nice to get an idea of the state of the AI at this point.

[CJueroX]

Nice looking changes - I will have to check out the research to see how much it will affect things of course (I get the idea behind it, but if the AI progression isn't slowed accordingly it could be very bad for people like me who aren't optimal with research)

One question: Could someone point me to the change log that talks about how air combat was changed? I haven't been able to play for quite a while (I don't remember what experimental build it was on when I last played) and I noticed this morning that the air combat is tougher and my 'dead' interceptor (2 interceptors vs 1 light scout and I actually lost an interceptor, not complaining... just a little shocked) isn't really dead? [The interceptor in question is showing in my assets list and is in my hangar with 0 health]

I have noticed that the AI seems a tad brighter than it was when I last played, they take up pretty strong defensive positions and make it a bit more strategic to take them out. There is still an issue (at least I think its an issue) where supressed enemies will still fire on me though.

[GoodKnight]

Yeah shotguns fire individual pellets that can hit adjacent tiles sometimes. It's more of a blunderbuss effect than a traditional shotgun (though the same enemy can still be hit multiple times due to the multiple bullets), but it's more fun than the previous single slug.

And yes, the penetration of the shotgun has accordingly been reduced. It does a lot of damage but has very little armour penetration.

Why not have both types of ammunition?

[a333]

Nice realisation of the buckshot. I love the shotguns now.

The ammo consuming is more tight too. 2x spare shotgun boxes are a must even on small missions.

AI is good. More punishing, sometimes unforgiving. You won't be able to do stupid things without the retribution anymore.

The very first mission beat the crap out of my light-hearted approach. You have to think more now and this is wonderful.

Got 2 CTD's though, one with the looking over arabic local forces' corpse, and one on the air combat.

Overall this is the most interesting build i've played.

And i'm able to set shotgun pellets count to 5! Awesomest!

Why not have both types of ammunition?

I believe shotgun is working like a machine gun burst with no delay between shots. Sadly, shotCount parameter that controls the, duh, shot count, is tied to the firing mode and not to ammunition type. Of course, it would be better to have shotCount where it is (governing count of shots in burst) and additional parameter, like projectilesCount tied to the ammunition (controlling how much projectiles will be in the one shot). That way you can make autoshotguns and rocket launchers with volley shots. But it requires more work to implement, i don't know exactly how much more.

Also it's a mystery how the shotguns are shooting multiple pellets but consuming only one ammo. I've yet to found any info in the xml that will control this or at least indicate that "this is shotgun".

Edited August 17, 2013 by a333

[Dranak]

The most obvious is that they move a lot more, both offensively and retreating. They also seem to have more TUs as noncoms can fire two shots plus a burst in a single turn, which seems a bit much.

[GoodKnight]

Nice realisation of the buckshot. I love the shotguns now.

The ammo consuming is more tight too. 2x spare shotgun boxes are a must even on small missions.

AI is good. More punishing, sometimes unforgiving. You won't be able to do stupid things without the retribution anymore.

The very first mission beat the crap out of my light-hearted approach. You have to think more now and this is wonderful.

Got 2 CTD's though, one with the looking over arabic local forces' corpse, and one on the air combat.

Overall this is the most interesting build i've played.

And i'm able to set shotgun pellets count to 5! Awesomest!

I believe shotgun is working like a machine gun burst with no delay between shots. Sadly, shotCount parameter that controls the, duh, shot count, is tied to the firing mode and not to ammunition type. Of course, it would be better to have shotCount where it is (governing count of shots in burst) and additional parameter, like projectilesCount tied to the ammunition (controlling how much projectiles will be in the one shot). That way you can make autoshotguns and rocket launchers with volley shots. But it requires more work to implement, i don't know exactly how much more.

Also it's a mystery how the shotguns are shooting multiple pellets but consuming only one ammo. I've yet to found any info in the xml that will control this or at least indicate that "this is shotgun".

So is there no chance of implementing ammo that when loaded fires the "burst" IE the buckshot. and does x damage.

and implementing ammo that when loaded fires single shot IE the slug? dealing y damage?

[zolobolo]

Thanks guys, the challenge has increased in a good way both in Geoscape and ground combat. Grenades still explode for me right after they are thrown (also killed one of my dudes in the process), and stun grenades do not have any area of effect shown anymore but guess this will be corrected till the next version. Time to send more of my men into the grinder in the meantime

Keep up the good work!

[Ol' Stinky]

Also, I've not played much of V19.7 myself but GJ has fixed some of the incorrect inputs into the AI - how exactly has their behavior changed, out of interest? It'd be nice to get an idea of the state of the AI at this point.

I've only played a little bit of 19.7, but it seems like the aliens' tactic is to try and group up. Which makes sense, really. So far, they generally congregate around the lightscout, taking cover. I haven't seen the AI do any squats yet (i.e. an alien behind cover stands up, then couches back down again for no real reason). I haven't seen them place their units too close together for the most part, they'll usually only have two guys within an LMG's suppression range, so that any other aliens can reaction fire.

Talking of which, reaction fire seems a little strange. Units, both alien and xenonaut, can react fire through smoke at targets they can't see themselves. Is that intended? I've also seen reaction fire hit a target that, erm, wasn't in the line of fire: the dreaded return of curving bullets!

[Ogremk3]

Good points, the reaction fire seems to be ignoring saved up TUs which I thought was how it was supposed to work? Maybe I'm wrong? Yeah reaction fire is a bit odd feeling but I wouldn't say it's doing abusive odd shots like targeting around corners.

Aliens still do the silly prairie dog bob up and down but I'm ok with that. Very aggressive AI--almost superhuman like it sometimes ignores LOS and pathing when making decisions about tactics and cover. Kinda grows on you. Quite a shock from earlier builds. I lost half my squad on my first contact.

[a333]

So is there no chance of implementing ammo that when loaded fires the "burst" IE the buckshot. and does x damage.

and implementing ammo that when loaded fires single shot IE the slug? dealing y damage?

That depends on Chris to decide implementing aforemented "projectilesCount" parameter and mechanics behind it, or perhaps some alternative way to tie pellet count to ammunition.

[Hnefi]

So, how much armor penetration does each pellet have? A shotgun slug would punch through armor, but pellets have very little kinetic energy due to their low mass.

Not to nitpick, but shotgun slugs are exceptionally poor at penetrating armor. The slug does have quite a bit of kinetic energy, but most of it is spent deforming the slug when it hits since it has no jacket.

Buckshot is even worse of course, but if you want to penetrate armor, a jacketed rifle bullet is what you want.

[StellarRat]

Not to nitpick, but shotgun slugs are exceptionally poor at penetrating armor. The slug does have quite a bit of kinetic energy, but most of it is spent deforming the slug when it hits since it has no jacket.

Buckshot is even worse of course, but if you want to penetrate armor, a jacketed rifle bullet is what you want.

You mean like this:

[GoodKnight]

You mean like this:

lol when I was in the army we used ceramic plating in out vests heavy as fuck..

But on topic yeah there are different kind of slugs ment for different kind of shit. I'm sure anyone hit by a regular slug would be at least incapacitated as in a casualty. No matter what kind of armor he was wearing

[cody522]

Nice looking changes - I will have to check out the research to see how much it will affect things of course (I get the idea behind it, but if the AI progression isn't slowed accordingly it could be very bad for people like me who aren't optimal with research)

One question: Could someone point me to the change log that talks about how air combat was changed? I haven't been able to play for quite a while (I don't remember what experimental build it was on when I last played) and I noticed this morning that the air combat is tougher and my 'dead' interceptor (2 interceptors vs 1 light scout and I actually lost an interceptor, not complaining... just a little shocked) isn't really dead? [The interceptor in question is showing in my assets list and is in my hangar with 0 health]

I have noticed that the AI seems a tad brighter than it was when I last played, they take up pretty strong defensive positions and make it a bit more strategic to take them out. There is still an issue (at least I think its an issue) where supressed enemies will still fire on me though.

You can find information about the air combat in 19.5 or maybe 19.4 one was dedicated to aircraft changes.

I believe suppression isn't supposed to stop you from firing, it just lowers the amount of TU you are allowed to use the next turn. I've noticed suppressed aliens like to make a snap shot then run in a random direction instead of firing 3 or 4 shots.

[KingBork]

Also it's a mystery how the shotguns are shooting multiple pellets but consuming only one ammo.

Well that's kinda how shotgun pellets work. You shoot one little bundle of goodness that breaks into itty bitty pieces.

[a333]

Well that's kinda how shotgun pellets work. You shoot one little bundle of goodness that breaks into itty bitty pieces.

I'm not that stupid, mate. =)

I meant i don't understand how this work in game, because i didn't find the parameter which tells the game: "weapon.shotgun should consume only one bullet from the clip despite firing three per burst". Rifles consume three bullets after firing burst.

That also means if i would like to add a new shotgun to the game, i don't know how to make it work like shotgun and not a rifle.

Well, may be i'm missing something in the plain sight and, in fact, stupid.

UPD: It's probably linked to the firing mode. Single shot always consume one bullet, and burst consumes shotCount bullets. So now i know how to add a shotgun. But i'd still prefer to see this as an ammunition parameter.

Edited August 18, 2013 by a333

[Ol' Stinky]

There I was lining up my guys to breach the lightscout as usual. Nothing out of the ordinary, until the doors opened and one of them ran outside and blew away Cpt. Kermit! Wow! That was a shock!

Good points, the reaction fire seems to be ignoring saved up TUs which I thought was how it was supposed to work? Maybe I'm wrong? Yeah reaction fire is a bit odd feeling but I wouldn't say it's doing abusive odd shots like targeting around corners.

Aliens still do the silly prairie dog bob up and down but I'm ok with that. Very aggressive AI--almost superhuman like it sometimes ignores LOS and pathing when making decisions about tactics and cover. Kinda grows on you. Quite a shock from earlier builds. I lost half my squad on my first contact.

The mission I played directly after making my post had a couple of caesans practicing yoga behind a rock. Go figure.

The easiest spot I've found to recreate bendin' bullets is the door of a lightscout.

Soldiers standing in the green circles can trigger and be hit by reaction fire, while being unable to hit Mr. Reaction Shot themselves. (This isn't a picture of when it happened, just a convenient pic to show the danger zone.)

[Sherelian]

I have some trouble with the grenades. There was an Andron, which I wanted somewhow to disable. I threw 8 emp-grenades on him and they hardly bothered him.

Is that supposed to be that way?

[Ol' Stinky]

The shock grenades (and stun baton) have EMP damage defined in the .xmls, but it's currently not implemented. Sorry. For the time being, think of them as another flavour of stun grenade. Shocks do double the direct stun of stun grenades, but instead of leaving gas, they deal a ton of suppression over a wide area. Of course, that last bit's not so useful now that shocks explode at the end of the turn, unlike flashbangs.

[Nooz]

1. I can see hiden movements of alen if i saw him in last turn.(for exemple: I go out from the wall and i have seen alien. then I go back to the wall and click "End turn". Then I see how moving of this alien.)

2. When happen event "Grounded UFO was found" i have dialogbox with buttons: Cancel, run mission. But i want to have button "5-sec time mode" to prepare to mission.

3. I want to have opportunity to take some equipment to Chinook (baggage compartment) . And take it from ground anytime when mission is run.

[thothkins]

very much for number 2. I know it's come up for previous builds (as I posted it )

Hopefully 1) can get fixed.

I think 3) was a design decision going way back. By assigning roles to your troops you could equip them far more easily. Therefore, it would be easier, and sensible, to equip them for their roles in the base, rather than from a finite amount of equipment on the dropship. So without the cargo hold there for that part of the game, I'm not sure how easy it would be to add now.

I barely, if ever, used it in EU1994 so I'm not too upset by its absence.

[Chris]

Is EMP not working? It should do. Shock grenades should either apply stun damage to stunnable aliens or damage to robotic ones.

[Ol' Stinky]

With increased research times, detonation at the end of turn and no formal announcement about 'shock grenades (remember, I thought that they were a work in progress), I haven't got them in 19.7. In 19.6 and previous they only did stun damage to robots, or at least, only blue numbers were coming up on the floating damage text. I faithfully tested them out each version, and each time I'd turn to Tiny Tim and tell him that EMPs were still not on the table.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Ol' Stinky