Grenades

[Ishantil]

So after remembering that I can actually throw a baseball more than about 15 feet I'm not happy with it.

I should not have to run up to a guy so he can shoot me for two full turns before I can throw a grenade at him.

[StellarRat]

Why? Remember there is severe range compression in Xenonauts. Each tile really represents about 10 -15 meters of firing distance.

[ViniJones]

The throwing range is related to the soldiers strength. Once you get a few majors and better nades, it becomes fun. .)

[Max_Caine]

The formulae is, I believe... (((strength /10 (round down)) * throwing multiplier (config.xml)) -3) + (weapons_gc.xml throwing modifier).

So currently, for grenades that's (((strength /10 (round down)) * 2) -3) + 0

EDIT: There was a hideous amount of complaining about the range of grenades. Along the lines of "that's totally unrealistic!" "my immersion is ruined!" etc. etc. but the previous mega range of grenades was super silly. I believe I was one of the people who bitched about it.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Max_Caine

[Mytheos]

The formulae is, I believe... (((strength /10 (round down)) * throwing multiplier (config.xml)) -3) + (weapons_gc.xml throwing modifier).

So currently, for grenades that's (((strength /10 (round down)) * 2) -3) + 0

EDIT: There was a hideous amount of complaining about the range of grenades. Along the lines of "that's totally unrealistic!" "my immersion is ruined!" etc. etc. but the previous mega range of grenades was super silly. I believe I was one of the people who bitched about it.

From what I saw from testing it, at least currently...it seems to be STR + Throwing multi, which is set to 2 for this build. (I think 3 is a better value tho)

So 85 STR + 2 = 10.5 tiles, or just 10 as you cant throw a half tile.

However if you set the Mutli to 2.5, it'd be 11 tiles for example.

So for rookies with less than 60 STR, they can only throw 7 tiles...which is a bit rough to start.

Keep it mind the prop range on grenades is set to 10, which means even if you get to 90 STR (11 tiles) and toss a Flashbang that far it wont Suppress. This also seems to effect the AoE as well.

I believe all suppression is hindered by this as well, even bullets going past their weapon's range wont suppress even if its a direct hit...rocket launchers too.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Mytheos

[ViniJones]

I didnt do the numbers, but my flashbangs dont work even if I bring them in a melee range... shock nades do supress though.

I can confirm that out of range fire doesnt supress.

[Mytheos]

I didnt do the numbers, but my flashbangs dont work even if I bring them in a melee range... shock nades do supress though.

I can confirm that out of range fire doesnt supress.

Thats odd, I have no problems with flashbangs working.

(I increased the prop range to 20 as a bug fix, but within 10 tiles they work fine for me without the fix)

Flash = 100, Shock = 150

Which is weird as a Flash will Suppress everything in the game as is. Max Alien Bravery is 100

If you want a challenge, you can check out the mod in my Signature. ( I see you are playing on insane )

The Sebs have more than 20 Reflexes, so you cant dance all your soldiers around them and not get shot in the face.

Granted I set it from 30-45 depending on rank...its not crazy at that point but they will actually use reaction fire.

Might want to start with normal though until you get your tactics updated, many of the easy-mode stuff you can do in vanilla will get your face shot off.

[Ishantil]

I am not willing to accept that a square is 30-45 feet based on the scaling of everything else in the game. That's absurd.

All the time I think, "well, if this was...uh, well, any X-COM game, I would use a grenade here. Doh."

I rarely use anything but smoke grenades (which I'm not convinced actually work) and the flares at nighttime (which you can throw farther, hah!)

So the point of being able to toss a grenade like 7 tiles is making me not be able to use them, basically. I see a bunch of guys, "oooh, I should toss a grenade" then I remember he's nice squares from me, and I have to leave cover to throw this grenade and run three squares to get in range...or I can shoot him with my laser rifle and stop carrying grenades altogether."

I have never once used an Alenium grenade. Not once.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Ishantil

[EchoFourDelta]

I am not willing to accept that a square is 30-45 feet based on the scaling of everything else in the game. That's absurd.

This. If that's the idea, there's a problem, because literally nothing else in the game is presented this way.

[Ishantil]

The rear end of the CH-47 barely has enough room for three guys to exit side by side. That's probably 8-10 feet for three squares. Some "hand-wavery" for fun and whatnot is okay, say each square is five feet on a side. That means that two people in adjacent squares would be within hand to hand range. Which in turn supports the fact that I can use a cattle prod to zap a Sectoid.

[StellarRat]

This. If that's the idea, there's a problem, because literally nothing else in the game is presented this way.

You're supposed to use your imagination. There is no way to draw the detail in a Xenonauts map and have it loadable or distributable if correct scaling is used. The actual drawing scale is 1.6 meters per tile. So, using that scale you should be able to throw a grenade 25+ tiles, BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, that also means you ought the able to pop off stationary targets with even an AR at about 150 tiles easily. Basically, the whole map is point blank range for a lot of direct fire weapons. Do you see the problem now? Edited August 10, 2013 by StellarRat

[Dogdoc]

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong here but the grenades just feel . . . right . . . to me. Looking at this as a game and not a simulation, in very simplistic terms, I can shoot a long way. I can only throw a grenade a short way. It makes for some interesting choices. If I see some targets grouped, can I get to decent cover and toss a grenade at them? I'd like to capture one or two . . . can I get close enough to toss a stun grenade without putting my soldier in danger? I kind of like the way it works right now (19.6HF2).

I agree that I don't use grenades all that often but I always carry a few . . . you never know when you might need 'em.

[Ol' Stinky]

I am not willing to accept that a square is 30-45 feet based on the scaling of everything else in the game. That's absurd.

All the time I think, "well, if this was...uh, well, any X-COM game, I would use a grenade here. Doh."

I rarely use anything but smoke grenades (which I'm not convinced actually work) and the flares at nighttime (which you can throw farther, hah!)

So the point of being able to toss a grenade like 7 tiles is making me not be able to use them, basically. I see a bunch of guys, "oooh, I should toss a grenade" then I remember he's nice squares from me, and I have to leave cover to throw this grenade and run three squares to get in range...or I can shoot him with my laser rifle and stop carrying grenades altogether."

I have never once used an Alenium grenade. Not once.

Do you not use grenades inside UFOs or the base missions? I understand not using frag grenades because of overdamage, but not using any offensive grenades at all sounds rough.

I get my best results from smokes when I spam them. If you get around 5-6 stacks inbetween you and them, the aliens will generally not bother shooting at you on their turn. You still need to watch out for reaction fire, though.

I still think I'd prefer to get some of the base range back and have the strength bonus nerfed, so that rookies are a bit better with grenades and vets are unchanged. Honestly, I thought the range of 10 tiles was fine. That's the same as the other CQC guns, but grenades can't be thrown any further than their max range: a pistol or a shotgun can still fire at targets 11+ tiles away, they just suffer damage/suppression/accuracy penalties. There's times when it's worth it to try the shot anyway, but grenades don't have that option.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Ol' Stinky

[ViniJones]

I agree with Dogdoc, I like the way grenades work in 19.6+2. I dont use flashbangs or frags because of the rookies range and carry capacity. alenium+ and shock nades work good.

[Ishantil]

There's a couple of good reasons to toss a grenade:

1. Dig out guys in cover or foxhole (or in this case a UFO)

2. Area suppression (when things explode, people tend to duck)

3. Area of effect damage (shredding more than one guy with shrapnel)

Technically, this game models:

4. Breaching (which would not actually work all very well because grenades are not shaped charges. They are designed for an anti-personnel role)

Grenades, with their base range of 6-7 tiles, are not effective at 2 or 3, in my opinion. Sure, I carry a couple of stun grenades around on my guy. Notably, you can't stun an Andron, so they are useless in that case.

Maybe I will have different experiences when I attempt a base assault, which is coming up.

[Ishantil]

No, actually, it's even stupider to try to use grenades in close quarters. This is retarded.

Nope, this is not an accurate enough simulation. I'll be editing the files, thanks.

Maybe I'll call the mod "Let's Make Grenades NOT STUPID"

[Mytheos]

No, actually, it's even stupider to try to use grenades in close quarters. This is retarded.

Nope, this is not an accurate enough simulation. I'll be editing the files, thanks.

Maybe I'll call the mod "Let's Make Grenades NOT STUPID"

config.xml - BaseThrowingRangeLimit = 2

I'd suggest 3. Sucks a little at first but that extra 1 tile helps them seem slightly less laughable on rookies.

Thing tho to realize once you get Vets with 80-90 STR thats 10-12 tiles. Which is a good range.

So if you jack that up to 4 from 2 for example, the rookies seem ok, but the Vets can toss a grenade 13-14 squares, which including blast radius can have around the same range as a rifle....which is excessive. (This is of course assuming you change the Prop Range to something past 10 to fix the bug grenades not work past a range of 10)

[Ishantil]

When I first encountered the nerfed grenades, the first thing I suggested was that the base range be given an extra tile.

Thanks for the hints, Mytheos. I will take a look at config.xml

[kabill]

So, using that scale you should be able to throw a grenade 25+ tiles, BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, that also means you ought the able to pop off stationary targets with even an AR at about 150 tiles easily. Basically, the whole map is point blank range for a lot of direct fire weapons. Do you see the problem now?

Serious question ('cause I'm interested to know) - is it actually that easy to hit something with a rifle at 200+ metres? Having never even laid eyes on a gun, let alone fired one, I've no idea how difficult shooting is. I'd have figured that shooting at that range would be difficult even against a stationary target, let alone a moving one or a target in cover (and even more difficult while under fire).

[Mytheos]

@Kabill

Well hard to say really, as the majority of accuracy loss is due to being in combat...and against Aliens you can take an already large penalty and increase it quite a bit. I'd say once you start hitting 100 meters your accuracy (Which is already probably less than stellar) is going to severely drop off.

I have never been in a life or death situation with a rifle so I cant say, but no one (Maybe) can say much about being in combat with an Alien.

But to hit at 200+ meters on a shooting range isnt "too" hard.

I think most military shooting ranges are around 500 meters, so draw your own conclusions.

[Ol' Stinky]

No, actually, it's even stupider to try to use grenades in close quarters. This is retarded.

Nope, this is not an accurate enough simulation. I'll be editing the files, thanks.

Maybe I'll call the mod "Let's Make Grenades NOT STUPID"

Are you using levelled up soldiers? It really does make a world of difference. I think it's bad if it's designed to make that much difference, though. I certainly wouldn't like to play either type of base mission with 7 range grenades, and I bet it'd be frustrating as all hell, involving a lot of chipping away at props for a hundred turns.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Ol' Stinky

[StellarRat]

Serious question ('cause I'm interested to know) - is it actually that easy to hit something with a rifle at 200+ metres? Having never even laid eyes on a gun, let alone fired one, I've no idea how difficult shooting is. I'd have figured that shooting at that range would be difficult even against a stationary target, let alone a moving one or a target in cover (and even more difficult while under fire).

Basic qualifying for the US Marines with the M16-A2 STARTS at a range of 200 yards and progresses out to 500 yards i.e. the closest target is 200 yards out. That's only for a basic qualification (you have to pass this), marksmen and expert badges are harder.

http://www.usmcweapons.com/the-m16a2-qualification-course/

I've done a fair bit of shooting in my life and it's not hard to stuff with a rifle at 200 yards. In fact, I'd say hitting human size targets is easy. For some perspective, my brother and I went out one day with a .220 Swift and 32x scope for some fun. I grabbed two one gallon milk jugs full of water and starting walking down the road. I walked for a full two or three minutes out to place the jugs (my brother kept yelling to keep going, LOL.) Doing some basic math, that's about 300 yards out. My brother allowed me the first shots, I was able to hit the milk jug three out of three times. I had never fired that rifle before. Granted that might be considered a sniper weapon in Xenonauts, but I'm far from an expert riflemen. Even with a pistol I'm easily able to place every shot in a 12" circle at 50 feet. On the Xenonauts ground scale I was making 100% at 160 tiles with the rifle and 100% at 9 tiles with the pistol. And these targets were much small than a full size humanoid. If we consider the Xenonauts expert marksmen, guys that fire EVERYDAY and probably fire thousands of practice rounds a month you get an idea of how truly compressed the shooting ranges are.

Edited August 10, 2013 by StellarRat

[kabill]

@Mytheos/StellarRat - thanks!

(And sorry for minor thread derailment).

[Fire@Jimmi]

My beef with grenades is that I can never throw them over an obstacle Eg crate, hedge, wall etc. The throwing arc is too none existant

[Max_Caine]

Are you playing with v18? I have zero problems throwing them over most things.