Air Combat Discussion for 19.5

[Ishantil]

Overview:

So after running through a bunch of air combats with the game I started wondering about approach the developers are taking for the air combat. I like a lot of the ideas in the game and I think that the overall implementation is pretty great. It's definitely more challenging, deeper, and fun for a lot of people.

After reading a lot of forum posts, there seems to be three camps:

1. The people who are actually good at the air combat and like it to be difficult

2. The people who develop tactics to that work around the difficulty (three Foxtrots, hit and fade, rinse, repeat)

3. The people who are like me, who haven't quite figured it out (and may not!)

Past Approach:

To take a quick look at the "roots" of Xenonauts, the X-COM approach was a simpler air combat format. The aircraft were destructible. They either had to be rebuilt or you had to order a new one. With each era of the game, assuming you were keeping up with research, you had very reasonable chance at bringing down a UFO in a single or perhaps two engagements. With this system, the player got to decide whether it was worth the sacrifice of an aircraft to bring down a target. Repair times were long.

Current Approach:

With Xenonauts, the focus seems to be on multiple engagements per UFO. Even the people who say they love the combat and are good at it say so. "Don't be afraid to re-engage in four hours!" Yes, I know that approach works, but that's means several times the number of air engagements per UFO. Is that the intent of the system? I'm not sure.

General Comments:

I find the air battles in the beginning of the game to be exciting and fun. By the time the second or third month rolls around, the difficulty spikes way higher and it becomes very frustrating for me. Having to do that all the time makes it tedious. At that point, I just want it to be over so I can get to the parts of the game I do like. And there's plenty I like about this game.

It seems obvious that at least one of the reasons they introduced the "free" fighters was that air combat was so devastating. Losing three fighter craft would basically ruin the game, it's pretty tough to recover $350,000 on top of the inability to actually shoot down UFOs, which is one of the primary ways you make money.

Suggestion:

Down here at the bottom, if you made it this far past my wall of text, I do have a suggestion that would hopefully help each of the three groups of players have fun with the game. Assuming there will be no changes to the gameplay elements, my best suggestion is as follows:

Decouple the air combat difficulty. Have one for the overall game, and one for air combat. That way, each player can fine-tune their experience.

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Thanks for reading. And thanks to Goldhawk for all their effort. There's a lot of good here, and I hope that the game is successful beyond all imagining.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Ishantil
typos

[GizmoGomez]

That has actually been suggested, and the idea does have merit.

[Jmac006]

Greetings....

I am glad someone posted about this because I've noticed vast differences in gameplay in the few hours I've played today and its very alarming. I am started to wonder if the early hard core side of the community is giving to much feedback on balance as the differences between the stable build I started today with and the Experimental 19.5 that i ended the day with are literally night and day.

I am a big fan of xcom and even the recently released Xcom: ufo defense by 2kgames. I'm also a strategy and rpg veteran. I only say this because I am consider myself a hardcore gamer and usually am bashing carebears because they want things to easy. However I also understand that this game has to appeal to a large group of players if we are ever going to get it finished and get a sequel out of it. So with that in mind...I'll go a step further then the person who started this post...current air combat is way to hard for a normal difficulty setting. It needs to be changed in order to make the game playable by a larger audience, its very disturbing early on to get wiped via air combat.

#1 the stable version as of today seems very solid balance wise with soliders, leveling up, promotions, air combat and ground combat were both on target regarding difficulty as i was playing on normal. I had several air combats and i won in 2v1 and 1v1 situations without really being involved....I thought this was appropriate considering i was fighting light scout ships and it was the very beginning of the same.

I saved a game rt before air combat to test extensively

#2 I upgraded to exp v19.5 and while the lower cost of bases was nice....everything else seemed like a step back.

#2a Air combat difficulty in my opinion is totally broken....at a normal diff setting i used auto resolve 10 times in a row, lost all ten times.

#2b I engaged 6 times in a row, not touching anything letting the computer handle it while i watched....50% win/loss

#2c I tried to do the air combat myself, sometimes using afterburners, missle and everything else...maintained about a 50/50win loss

#2d I noticed in the stable version, missle fire from farther away and hit every time. (fighting a light scout ship thats not a bad thing)

#2e in the v19.5 missle on auto fire miss everytime due to an enemy role....(again against a light scout at the start of game on norm diff....this is way to much) (i totally see the current air combat at hard diff not norm)

Ground combat.....

I rotated between taking care of my guys and rushing as i wanted to test things out...i consistently lost 2 guys using the most basic tactics and never using aim in the stable version.....i honestly thought this was a good learning curve and fair for a nomal diff setting, i could of easily up my tactics and done consistently better.......however.....

V19.5

#3 ground combat in v19.5 again seems like it should be the hard diff and not norm...

#3a the hidden combat doesnt really work correctly and you dont see the mobs firing at you, or who takes the hits till its over.(i didnt see any problems like this in the stable version)

#3b I think the balancing done that nerfed snipers, and slowed character growth arent very good moves, Granted i havent played far yet nor to the end game but it seems like things happen very fast....a dont think there was anything wrong with progression in the stable version.

#4 this gets its own number.....Alien craft.....assualting a downed ship when the aliens stay in it...ouch....lost 5 guys to two guys inside.

#4a decided to up my tactics and play like a veteran, one of the two aliens actually killed the other alien while i was outside the ship, i went in....saw them, went back out.....the aliens shot at me....i went back in after a couple of turns...and one was actualy dead.....

#4b using better tactics i still lost 1 guy to the alien guy inside the craft...from what ive seen it would be very very hard not to lose any in this situation. I'm trying to think in general terms for the mass market, not the individual exp gamer like myself who can alter tactics to do well or not to do well. In general i again think aliens staying in there craft, and the almost certainly to lose a member or two, to get them out of it, should be the hard diff not the norm diff setting.

Thanks for your time and am looking forward to the future of xenonaughts

-Jmac

[GizmoGomez]

A couple pointers:

The autoresolve is literally brand new; it will have many bugs and illogical outcomes until it is ironed out a bit.

Never never never just let the "computer" do the air combat for you. It's not supposed to work like that.

The best way to handle UFOs that roll is by firing one missile, letting the UFO dodge it, and then firing the rest of your missiles just after it rolls, so as to catch it during the cooldown. You can press the missile (and autocannon) buttons to disable the auto fire, and when you press them again it either a) enables autofire again if you don't have a target lock/in range, or b) fires the missile/guns if you have a target lock and are within range.

You can select aircraft and click on where you want them to go, allowing more advanced tactics than bullrushing the UFO, like drawing their fire, leading them into traps, etc.

Also, several of your points were involving the ground combat, not the air combat. Not that I'm trying to exclude any discussion or anything.

Also, if you'd like to comment on an "official" beta discussion board, you can go to the beta section (air combat is part of the geoscape balance, fyi).

[Jmac006]

Gizmo

Its true some of my coments should of been placed elsewhere...however i want to point out...I was testing the air combat auto resolve, Its not something i would actually use in a real playthrough, however, if its going to be a feature, they need the feedback for it to work properly...this is why i was testing it.....

I really dont understand your point though when you say never to use it....clearly the feature is there for players who may not want to do the air combat part...while that isnt me cause i like doing it, i do think it should be a feature, it just needs to be polished so that results are consistent and not extreme to either side of the fence.

I want to take this opportunity to reiterate that I was doing 1 starter plane v 1 light scout doing these auto resolves. I do believe 1v1 on auto resolve should have a 50/50 outcome where as had i brought a 2nd fighter to the mix, goes up like 90% on the win side....Again i only am responding here cause it is a new feature, and i believe this is the feature dicussion, all in all i think its a feature that needs to be in...just given somewhere close to the outcomes above and not epic fails everytime.

Also one more point to consider..while i am sure those tactics work well...and a lot of other tactics also....the game on norm diff....in the beginning stages shouldnt involve anything that comes close to having to formulate advanced tactics, we( hopefully all of us in the community) want this game to appeal to a large audience and having the learning curve not be to intimidating for a brand new player to stick around and learn as they go.

Thanks

Jmac

Edited July 29, 2013 by Jmac006
typo

[Ishantil]

Also, if you'd like to comment on an "official" beta discussion board, you can go to the beta section (air combat is part of the geoscape balance, fyi).

This is an excellent point, GizmoGomez, if a mod could please move this to the beta forum, that would be awesome.

[GizmoGomez]

Gizmo

Its true some of my coments should of been placed elsewhere...however i want to point out...I was testing the air combat auto resolve, Its not something i would actually use in a real playthrough, however, if its going to be a feature, they need the feedback for it to work properly...this is why i was testing it.....

I really dont understand your point though when you say never to use it....clearly the feature is there for players who may not want to do the air combat part...while that isnt me cause i like doing it, i do think it should be a feature, it just needs to be polished so that results are consistent and not extreme to either side of the fence.

I want to take this opportunity to reiterate that I was doing 1 starter plane v 1 light scout doing these auto resolves. I do believe 1v1 on auto resolve should have a 50/50 outcome where as had i brought a 2nd fighter to the mix, goes up like 90% on the win side....Again i only am responding here cause it is a new feature, and i believe this is the feature dicussion, all in all i think its a feature that needs to be in...just given somewhere close to the outcomes above and not epic fails everytime.

Also one more point to consider..while i am sure those tactics work well...and a lot of other tactics also....the game on norm diff....in the beginning stages shouldnt involve anything that comes close to having to formulate advanced tactics, we( hopefully all of us in the community) want this game to appeal to a large audience and having the learning curve not be to intimidating for a brand new player to stick around and learn as they go.

Thanks

Jmac

I'll clarify what I meant:

Autoresolve is fine to use, and I didn't say not to use the autoresolve. What I did say not to do was to play the air combat manually and simply stare at the screen, waiting for you to win. That's what "letting the computer play" meant; the autoresolve is just a somewhat fancy random number generator anyway.

As far as "advanced" tactics go, I was simply referring to actually directing your planes in a logical manner, as opposed to simply letting them fly on their head long rush straight towards the enemy UFO (sitting there and not doing anything). Select your air craft, and click somewhere else. It will fly to that point. This allows you to move in behind the UFO by baiting it with another aircraft.

If you were only talking about the auto resolve, and not about playing it manually and not doing anything, then that's different.

Also, should normal difficulty be that easy? It's not difficult at all to send up two Condors and fire one missile slightly before the other three (causing the UFO to dodge the first one, and get hit by the three others). Obviously there will be a game manual made to explain a few things, so I don't think it should be so easy a caveman can do it.

[Ishantil]

Hey, just because I can't down a medium UFO doesn't make me a caveman!

[GizmoGomez]

Haha, no offense intended, sorry.

I meant that with the inclusion of a manual (right now, the forums are the manual substitute) the air combat will be explained in more detail (than the current 0 explanation that we get) and so making it overly easy (so as to be winnable without knowing how to play the game) isn't a good idea.

[Ishantil]

Sorry, the Internet doesn't transmit the inflection of my typing.

I knew you weren't trying to be offensive.

As for the manual, yeah, a good play by play with pictures and such, plus a key mapping would be great.

[StellarRat]

I knew you weren't trying to be offensive.

My understanding is that he doesn't bathe and uses no deodorant. Other than that he is not offensive or so they say.

[Jmac006]

gizmo

My point with difficulty, is on normal setting at the beginning of the game vs light scouts...yes it should be that easy...any good game has to have difficulty scale as your progress.....In the stable version of the game, you dont have to do anything to beat a light scout...the missle range is longer and it fires prior to the light scout getting into the cone...i think this is a good way to start things out.

With 19.5 you have to manually do it to win.....not a good scale for the mass market starting the game and getting smoked!

I also don't want you to think we are going round and round...

We both hopefully have the same goal...Xenonaughts being a hit.

I know you are very active on these boards so I'll ask you to take something into perspective....when you are giving feedback ( not talking about this post but in general)...please consider giving it in a way the devs can take it and make everything more attractive to new players and the mass market and not just for people who may like higher diff settings as the norm game....

Any hardcore strategy gamer will give this game a try when it comes out just cause its trying to walk in Xcoms shoes...however, while it is a larger market today then its ever been...we still need to keep the game attractive to new players a large consumer base....so anyways...like i said...when do u give feedback to the devs, please have you and all your board friends keep in mind that we need the game to be a good exp for a lot of people, and a good game needs to scale difficulty and allow time for a learning curve......( I personally play things on ironman but that certainly isn't the playstyle I'm trying to advocate for, I'm trying to help keep things real for the new guy and people who like strategy but aren't naturally great at them)

I only mention this because browsing though the forums I've seen a lot of feedback that seems very linear in its perspective and I'm starting to wonder if early access itself won't cause a game delay because the poor devs are bombarded with a small percentage of board warriors creating like 4 different posts on rank.....To all the rank guys i say...Save/load much?

Anyways I hope you can now see the spirit and the context for which I am advocating and join me in that....Speaking of which...it would be nice to have a list of the soliders who have gotten waxed under your command...If you like that idea to start a thread on it...maybe they already will do that and I just don't know about it.

Jmac

[GizmoGomez]

So... requiring effort initially for the manual air combat option is a "hardcore" thing?

I'm just not seeing a little bit of effort being a bad thing.

Especially since, even in v18 Stable, you cannot simply let the planes fly themselves and win. Rewarding the player when they don't interact with the air combat (by letting them win without putting forth effort) will lead them to think, consciously or not, that they can just let the air combat play itself out, and then when they start losing against better UFOs that show up because they aren't playing the game properly (yes, there is a proper way to play it; actually play, don't just watch) they'll complain about the sudden spike in difficulty, because they've grown accustomed to the game giving them victories on a silver platter.

In fact, that's basically what you're doing, though you may not realize it. You were able to just let the air combat play itself out in v18, but in v19 you are required to put forth effort (thus giving good practice for the better UFOs out there) and you complain about the higher difficulty, when in fact the game is doing you a favor and not lulling you into a false sense of security by giving you free air combat and then jumping the difficulty.

All this being said, I'm not saying that the air combat should be exceedingly difficult. However, it can't start off at level 0, giving the player free stuff for no effort, because then the player will feel jipped when they suddenly need to put forth effort. Does that make sense?

I'm trying to help players, even new ones, like the game by preparing them for later air combats early.

[Ishantil]

Personally, I just want them to tone it down some and/or decouple the air combat difficulty from the main game difficulty.

[TheTuninator]

I'd be fine with the default air combat difficulty being similar to X-COM's in that all the game requires for most UFOs is for the player to show up with suitably advanced aircraft and weapons in order to shoot down the UFO without much risk of losing a fighter. If you don't want to do anything past manually firing missiles and the occasional roll, you should still be able to clear most battles with no more than moderate or, at worst, severe damage on the standard difficulty.

A UFO difficulty slider that modifies UFO HP/weapon damage is pretty much necessary at this point, and would be nice both for those who want to be forced to employ real tactics in their air battles and for those who just want to get to the firefights.

Most of us on the forums are well acquainted with the tactics necessary to triumph in air combat, but it's necessary to realize that even most X-COM fans will not be coming into this game expecting that they will need to employ advanced tactics in air combat in order to be successful in the larger game. Overly frustrating air combat is likely to be a potential turnoff even to the more hardcore potential buyers because they're coming in expecting challenge on the ground, not in the air. Indestructible planes will solve this problem somewhat, but players are still likely to become very frustrated with constant plane losses if the air combat difficulty cannot be tweaked to match the ground combat difficulty.

Edited July 30, 2013 by TheTuninator

[Jmac006]

I Think TheTuminator said exactly what I've been trying to say...You said it even better then I did so thank you...However the only point I don't agree with is making planes indestructible....(maybe as something in the options for players who wanna do it that way)

Thanks again man you really explained it in a great way and I couldnt agree more aside from the indestructible thing.

Last note to Giz.....you cant punish players on a mini element of the game or they will never get to the core game. What you are saying is great for hard and insane diff....but normal bud....I'm thinking of everyone wanting to play this and enjoy it...not quit after 5 min and trash talk it for having a learning curve mini game that is rediculous....gizmo i know u r trying to help but look at perspective.....you've played this game over and over and over.....to be helpful u have to come at difficulty and whats good for mass market through the eyes of playing it for the First time....gamers who pay do not and sometimes do not...give a game a 2nd chance.