Ways to Balance Grenades

[Mytheos]

I think grenades should weigh slightly more, a 1.5 KG vs 1 KG type situation.

Suppression needs to be switched to a gradient scale that reduces TUs instead of Success/Fail.

Reaction fire from Aliens need to be added to everything a player does, tossing grenades, turning, everything. (If it is, I havent ever noticed it, which should indicate where to start fixing it)

Suppression is ducking behind cover and not being able to move out of cover for risk of being shot, and not being able to easily return fire due to not wanting to get shot. It has nothing to do with being in a "harmless" state if a guy walks up to you and starts clubbing you, the other bullets flying over and into your cover arent going to prevent an Alien from shooting you in the face if you try to melee them.

The "accuracy" of grenades needs to be reduced/changed. If you toss one towards your max range it is going to have poor accuracy, it isnt going to land at the Aliens feet 90% of the time.

They should suffer a varying accuracy penalty based on range.

Also STR progression I know is being discussed. That could be changed to a situation where average starting STR was around 50, and increasing from 50-60 was at a pace of 1 STR per mission. 61-70 would be a half point per mission, 71-80 would be a quarter point and so forth.

There are several reasons why grenades are OP, and adjusting the various reasons is going to give better results than going crazy on a single reason in an attempt to fix it.

[Dranak]

I think we should really table this discussion for a couple days so we have time to play with the newly buffed close combat and grenade overdamage. The reason frag grenades were so good in 19.4 was higher damage, high accuracy, and no real downside. Now they have a drawback, and less of an accuracy advantage over other weapons.

[Mytheos]

This was posted before then, by like an hour lol. I would have tested the 19.5 build before posting it had I known.

So far CTD within 10 mins 8-/

[Dranak]

Ah, I didn't check the post times. haha.

[kabill]

Quick note on suppression - assuming the game works like Chris described the mechanic when it was being proposed in the Community Involvement forum, suppression is (partially) gradiated in the sense that all units have a suppression value which, as they get shot at over a turn, reduces until it hits 0 at which point the unit becomes suppressed.

Therefore, it already works kind of like how you would like it to work, only 'suppression damage' doesn't make any difference until you reach the required threshold (essentially, the suppression value of a unit at the moment is the equivalent to the amount of shots which would be required to reduce a unit's TUs to half by suppression). Changing the system to the one you suggest wouldn't actually make suppression any less effective therefore (and might make it more so, since you'd get some benefit even before you reach the threshold).

It also means, however, that it's fairly easy to change the effectiveness of suppression to require more shots to cause it (by reducing suppression values). If suppression is too good, it's arguably only because suppression damage is apparently quite high relative to units' suppression values.

Also, re: grenades - I think Overdamage will help balance them (I've never used them very much before because I thought that had always been the case!). But, I do feel like they're too easy to use too (i.e. TU costs are relatively small - basically the same time to take a normal shot with a weapon). I think the issue for me is the low TU cost to swap items from the backpack/belt however - this feels like it should take a lot of a turn, not a small fraction of it.

[Ol' Stinky]

A gradiant suppression system wouldn't the "no reaction fire while a guy runs up and punches the alien in the face" situation from happening though, right? In both the current system and the suggested one, you suppress until the target doesn't have TUs to react fire, and then move in for the stun prodding.

The cap on how many TUs can be drained from the next turn that kabill mentioned means that the alien isn't helpless; it means the alien loses the chance to get the first shot. If the player goofs up and the alien survives the turn, he will always have enough TUs to at least snap shot - which should hit more often at not at point blank. With no damage mitigation from being out of range or from being ducked behind cover, that snap shot is going to seriously hurt, if not kill outright.

(And if the alien cheats, you're getting burst fire to the face. That's a dead soldier. I really hate that bug.)

Also, re: grenades - I think Overdamage will help balance them (I've never used them very much before because I thought that had always been the case!). But, I do feel like they're too easy to use too (i.e. TU costs are relatively small - basically the same time to take a normal shot with a weapon). I think the issue for me is the low TU cost to swap items from the backpack/belt however - this feels like it should take a lot of a turn, not a small fraction of it.

Don't forget that they got a range nerf in 19.5, too. I reckon they're in a good place now; while they're a better option than using an AR or shotgun to get a kill, I think it's more of a matter of bring those two up to par than needing to bring grenades down.

[kabill]

@Stinky, re: Grenades - Yeah, you're right (or, I'll take your word for it - I've not played very much 19.5 at all yet). I think I'd have preferred an increased TU cost to a range nerf, though.

[Ol' Stinky]

If it's a case of one or the other, yeah, I'd go with something like a +5 TU cost to throwing them one handed - that brings them up to 25 which is a standard shotgun shot. I think the range nerf was due to supersoldiers hurling grenades from across the planet, though...in which case I think I'd prefer the +3 back and the strength forumla tweaked instead. (; (+1 grenade range/15 str instead of 10 str, maybe?)

If nothing else, I'd like smoke grenades to get a bonus to range. I still chuck 'em everywhere, but now it really slows down my soldiers' advancement in the early game, where the game was already too slow paced.

[Slackwork]

I agree with Dranak, grenade over damage has gone a long way toward balancing them. I particularly like that it does so without reducing grenades to the useless end of the dichotomous scale most games seem to balance grenades around.

Throughout v19.4 I was slowly becoming a grenade convert but now that each grenade kill costs me loot I've switched primarily back to actually using my guns. (shocking I know) Now I only use them in "oh shit" moments where I need to clear some hostiles quickly or to soften a target for standard fire to finish the job. This seems like a very nice place for grenades to be at.

[Dranak]

After playing with grenades a bit in 19.5, I feel that grenades are in a better place, although the range feels ridiculously short and could maybe use very slight buff. Flare range definitely needs a buff. The range is so short we're basically reduced to face checking because you can't really throw further than vision range anyway.

I would like to see overdamage toned down a bit, where either they are destroyed by a direct hit or by an excessive amount of damage beyond a certain threshold. It would make them more useable, but still maintaining an element of a drawback.

[StellarRat]

After playing with grenades a bit in 19.5, I feel that grenades are in a better place, although the range feels ridiculously short and could maybe use very slight buff. Flare range definitely needs a buff. The range is so short we're basically reduced to face checking because you can't really throw further than vision range anyway.

I would like to see overdamage toned down a bit, where either they are destroyed by a direct hit or by an excessive amount of damage beyond a certain threshold. It would make them more useable, but still maintaining an element of a drawback.

Yeah, flares ought to have substantial range. If it's too short they're pretty much useless. I always thought it was one of those little handheld flare lauchers, not a flare gun, but something with a .22 blank to toss them out 25 - 100 yards. The grenades seem OK to me as far as range. I've been playing JA2 a lot lately and they have miserably short range in that game too. Even the M79 seems to be lacking. I'm assuming this is the result of range compression because of small maps just like Xenonauts.

[xcomnaut]

v19.5 Grenades and flares nerfed beyond usage. If range was a little bit shorter, thrower could blow himself together with his target. Not only difficult to use effectively but it cost too much to use them at all. I think developers trying to invent the wheel here instead of using mechanics of Xcom1994 or JA2. At least its easyly modable so not much damage done yet.

[StellarRat]

v19.5 Grenades and flares nerfed beyond usage. If range was a little bit shorter, thrower could blow himself together with his target. Not only difficult to use effectively but it cost too much to use them at all. I think developers trying to invent the wheel here instead of using mechanics of Xcom1994 or JA2. At least its easyly modable so not much damage done yet.

JA2 grenades are overused, underpowered, and overly ranged compared to the direct fire weapons. I can see mechanical reasons why this was done, but I believe that Xenonaut grenade implementation is actually better in some ways. Yes, the flares need more range, but the grenades do not. When grenades had more range it was possible to dominate the battlefield using 90% grenadiers, which is very unrealistic. IRL, grenades are THE closest range weapon next to a bayonet and extremely dangerous to use, but they are very deadly. Edited July 30, 2013 by StellarRat

[Mytheos]

A gradiant suppression system wouldn't the "no reaction fire while a guy runs up and punches the alien in the face" situation from happening though' date=' right? In both the current system and the suggested one, you suppress until the target doesn't have TUs to react fire, and then move in for the stun prodding.

The cap on how many TUs can be drained from the next turn that kabill mentioned means that the alien isn't helpless; it means the alien loses the chance to get the first shot. If the player goofs up and the alien survives the turn, he will always have enough TUs to at least snap shot - which should hit more often at not at point blank. With no damage mitigation from being out of range or from being ducked behind cover, that snap shot is going to seriously hurt, if not kill outright.

(And if the alien cheats, you're getting burst fire to the face. That's a dead soldier. I really hate that bug.)

Don't forget that they got a range nerf in 19.5, too. I reckon they're in a good place now; while they're a better option than using an AR or shotgun to get a kill, I think it's more of a matter of bring those two up to par than needing to bring grenades down.[/quote']

Well In another thread I suggested an alternate system.

But the idea would be it'd be harder to suppress the Aliens so you wouldnt have 7 guys with full TUs able to walk up and punch an Alien.

The other system I suggested was more complex and the Devs seem to embrace "Easiest is Best" mentality. So I didnt bother mentioning it again. (Not being rude just saying the engine seems to hate anything complex)

However the alternate system was thus:

Suppression could have multiple levels, Such as Level 1, 2 and 3.

The Level of suppression takes away certain amounts of TUs, but the main point is that it also reduces their "Reaction Range".

So Level-1 Suppression would for example reduce their range from say 20 to 15, Level-2 would reduce their range from 20 to 10, and level 3 would reduce it down to 5 tiles.

So even if you had an Alien Max Suppressed at Level-3 it'd have enough TUs to take a shot still, but couldnt reaction fire unless you were within 5 tiles.

So Melee'ing an Alien would always have a risk of getting shot in the face, and you'd have to put in more effort to suppress the Aliens.

Which would solve "Harmless Suppressed Aliens" and make the game more balanced in terms of certain weapons being good for suppression.

Sniper rifles would probably never get past Level-1 suppression, so if you wanted to stay ranged, fine. But forget about using grenades unless each time you would risk a reaction shot.

So you'd want to have something more like 2 snipers, 2-3 heavy and the rest rifle for a generic example. As each heavy might be able to Suppress a Level, so you'd need 2-3 heavys to hit Level-3 And you only have 1-2 heavy and 4 sniper left over.

Snipers you want to use ranged, so you'd only have 1-2 heavy that you'd feel had any business throwing a grenade, which wouldnt be enough to spam grenades successfully. Or at least you'd be faced with a greater risk.

As it is now, 1 guy fires and turns the Alien into a Kitten, and 7 other guys can do whatever they want.

I mean seriously, the Machine gun Burst fire should just have the name changed to projectile Date Rape Drug Delivery Shot

Edited July 30, 2013 by Mytheos

[Ol' Stinky]

Assuming the alien's a rough analogue to a Xenonaut, like a caesan soldier versus a player with basic armour and ballistic weapons - why shouldn't the alien get completely mauled when he's outnumbered 8 to 1?

I think this is more of a problem with earlier craft not having enough aliens. Lightscout missions where you fight one alien outside are especially silly, considering how many of them I end up doing per playthrough.

Having said that, it's probably a bit too easy to re-suppress. Units should probably re-generate more than 25% of suppression-resistance a turn (I think that's how the (suppression) regenerationPercent variable in config.xml works). Maybe bump it up to 30% or something and see how that plays out.

[kabill]

Not sure a change from 25% to 30% would make any real difference (even on an unit with 100 bravery that's only an extra 5/turn). 50% would seem like a better number to me, if you wanted to do this.

[Ol' Stinky]

Fair enough!

[xcomnaut]

JA2 grenades are overused, underpowered, and overly ranged compared to the direct fire weapons. I can see mechanical reasons why this was done, but I believe that Xenonaut grenade implementation is actually better in some ways. Yes, the flares need more range, but the grenades do not. When grenades had more range it was possible to dominate the battlefield using 90% grenadiers, which is very unrealistic. IRL, grenades are THE closest range weapon next to a bayonet and extremely dangerous to use, but they are very deadly.

Grenades needs more range too. Not unlimited range as was in v18 but definitely more than 7. Again, what weapon is used is player's decision. No one is forced to play unrealistic if they feel so.

Grenades were good choice because of bad weapon accuracy so range was nerfed and overdamage added instead of increasing weapon accuracy so people start to use guns instead of throwing rocks. Then everyone(people who love to exploit game engine) started to use sniper rifles because of cover ignore feature so hypervelocity was removed and TU increased. What is next nerf target?

Why not fix things which does not work instead of breaking things which works fine?

[Ol' Stinky]

Hypervelocity isn't being removed. It's a temporary deal. Also, they're probably going to buff shotgun, pistol and AR rifle accuracy by a ton rather than continue to nerf snipers and grenades. The Aaron accuracy mod makes good changes to those guns.

[StellarRat]

Grenades needs more range too. Not unlimited range as was in v18 but definitely more than 7. Again, what weapon is used is player's decision. No one is forced to play unrealistic if they feel so.

Grenades were good choice because of bad weapon accuracy so range was nerfed and overdamage added instead of increasing weapon accuracy so people start to use guns instead of throwing rocks. Then everyone(people who love to exploit game engine) started to use sniper rifles because of cover ignore feature so hypervelocity was removed and TU increased. What is next nerf target?

Why not fix things which does not work instead of breaking things which works fine?

But, if a grenade has the same effective range as a pistol or shotgun what's the point in using either of those two weapons???? Also, the plan is to increase direct fire accuracy pretty much across the board. That ought to make your "throwing rocks" problem go away. There is also a known bug with firing accuracy inside a UFO (which is just plain WEIRD IMO. I'd love to hear why that is happening.) Anyway, maybe when the direct fire issues are fixed the grenade range could be looked at again, but I think the range is about correct right now. They are really supposed to be a nearly point blank weapon. A reward for getting in close without getting killed.

[xcomnaut]

But, if a grenade has the same effective range as a pistol or shotgun what's the point in using either of those two weapons????

You either use those weapons or dont, no need to break everything else to enforce to use something. I personally dont use pistols, shotguns, grenades, rocket launchers and stun batons just because using them dont suit my playing style. Maybe range of pistol and shotgun could be increased instead of decreasing range of grenade?

We both want to make game better, we just dont agree on method used

[StellarRat]

You either use those weapons or dont, no need to break everything else to enforce to use something. I personally dont use pistols, shotguns, grenades, rocket launchers and stun batons just because using them dont suit my playing style. Maybe range of pistol and shotgun could be increased instead of decreasing range of grenade?

We both want to make game better, we just dont agree on method used

I understand, but all I'm saying is that there is no way a grenade ought to have the same range as a pistol or shotgun. It isn't physically possible unless the human is a superman.

[GizmoGomez]

StellarRat's right; grenades are very close-range weapons.

[xcomnaut]

I understand, but all I'm saying is that there is no way a grenade ought to have the same range as a pistol or shotgun. It isn't physically possible unless the human is a superman.

Im 100% completely agree with you here, BUT...

This is the game and realism sometimes must be sacrificed for fun factor. Not everything is realistic in Xenonauts, some things are choise of developers other things are limitations of engine. Lets take for example that soldier with STR of 100 cant throw further than soldier with STR of 50, this is unrealistic too. Increasing grenade range would make them more fun to use. If this must be very realistic, then range of weapons can be increased a little bit too. IMHO, 7 tiles for Xenonauts is not enough.

Im not sure why I even argue about this, cause Im not a grenade lover anyway. But I cant believe Im alone who is not happy about this change. Anyway, lets wait for the next build where weapon accuracy update (could) go live (hopefully).

edit: Strange thing happened. Today I was testing grenades again, and 3 of my soldiers could throw 12-11-10 tiles. They have different STR, 66-65-57. A few days ago, Im sure, I couldnt throw further than 7 tiles. Same v19.5 game, no mods used. Hm ...

Edited July 31, 2013 by xcomnaut

[Chris]

The balance of the game is still in heavy flux. As you can see, weapons are increased / decreased in power quite regularly until we find something we think works. I'd only get worried about potential imbalance when we say balancing is finished and there won't be any more of it.

I've also seen quite a few complaints that we're nerfing weapons instead of improving other weapons - this strikes me as a strange complaint. The end result in both cases is that all human weapons end up equally useful, whether or not you get there by reducing the power of the most powerful weapon or increasing the power of the least powerful!