Interceptor Payloads?

[Ishantil]

Okay, so I shoot down ships with guns. Missiles don't seem to be that useful. They get dodged, and they rarely actually kill anything. Basically all the UFOs I've shot down have been with guns.

So...that brings me to the main point. Why are the payloads for the interceptors so small? Two AIM-54s?

The F-14 Tomcat, F-15 Eagle, and F-18 Hornet were all introduced in the 1970s. The F-18 would have been in combat trials and such in the beginning of the game, 1979.

All of which have far greater payloads than depicted in the game, even with drop tanks or FAST packs installed.

In the original X-COM game, Avalanche launchers have three shots. Stingray launchers have six.

Why do my planes suck so bad?

[thothkins]

the trick with the missiles is that you fire just one of them (click on the other one until it's red to prevent it firing) then, just a moment after you see the enemy craft roll, fire the other one. There's a cool down period for evasion, so your second missile will hit.

[Commissar Pancakes]

Think of it as compromising between combat power and the ability to actually catch up with UFOs.

As for combat trials...field testing a faster prototype?

[Commissar Pancakes]

Think of it as compromising between combat power and the ability to actually catch up with UFOs.

As for combat trials...field testing a faster prototype?

Remember that the fluff also states that each Xenonaut aircraft have received modifications in which to survive multiple plasma blasts.

[Gauddlike]

Plus if you increase the number of missiles then you really need to downgrade how powerful each one is in order to maintain the balance.

That means air combat takes longer as you need to go through multiple firing sequences and is also more dangerous to your craft as you need to manage multiple passes at the enemy without running into their firing arcs.

All possible to balance of course.

[xcomnaut]

the trick with the missiles is that you fire just one of them (click on the other one until it's red to prevent it firing) then, just a moment after you see the enemy craft roll, fire the other one. There's a cool down period for evasion, so your second missile will hit.

This becomes boring and repetitive very fast. 1st missile is 100% wasted(against "rollers") every time.

Some randomisation would be fun. Lets say 75% aliens will use evasive roll and then 75% if successful.

[thothkins]

It would give you an extra advantage against ships with escorts where you know you'll have to back to base to reload.

[Ishantil]

For those of you thinking that I am complaining because I don't know how to take down a UFO, fear not. I'm not complaining about the gameplay, which I find but fun and interesting.

By 1979, the F/A-18 Hornet (not to be confused with the Super Hornet, or E/F versions) was just entering service. The -14, -15. and -16s had all been in service by the time the game starts. Neither the Su-27, the MiG-29, nor the MiG-31 had entered service until the 1980s. The only Soviet aircraft was the MiG-25.

My point is that a single shot is both silly for the realism its based on (the Avalanche is based on the AIM-54 Phoenix missile, which the F-14 could carry up to six, four on the fuselage and two under each wing) as well as fun, because I shoot two missiles and my Foxtrot fighter is now worthless. I can't even use it as a decoy, because the UFOs ignore it once it's shot its staggering payload of two missiles. The Avalanche missile isn't worth it, it's not powerful enough to justify bringing along. In X-COM, the Avalanche missile was probably too good, so I understand toning it down some.

The main modification the planes would have received would not be armor upgrades, but rather range. The game implies that the Condor is bought "off the shelf" rather than needing to be modified by the Xenonaughts.

So my observations are thus:

1. Not having a cannon on a fighter aircraft is frankly dumb. Please allow me to select the role for my aircraft instead of pigeon-holing it into a missile truck, which frankly, are of questionable use.

2. The weapon compliment for the planes is too small and reloading takes too long. It doesn't take 12 hours to refuel a plane. You can refuel a plane in the air. You can get a full compliment of fuel. So the turnaround times for the fighters on the ground is too long.

3. Because of points 1 and 2, I very rarely can engage in two fights if two (or several) UFOs appear. Either because it takes 11 hours to fuel and rearm a plane (which I assure you, it does not).

4. The Air Combat mini-game is a lot of fun and I like it, but the least fun is not being able to play.

[Mytheos]

Expect to need 4-6 hangers per base.

Also, guns arent that important, Foxtrots are better than Condors and Corsairs. No Contest.

[Gauddlike]

The majority of the feedback I have seen is that cannon are next to useless and you only ever need to use missiles so it is interesting to see someone with the opposite view.

You could try adjusting the number of missiles available per hardpoint in the aircraftweapons.xml file.

I would definitely suggest toning the damage per missile down as well if you do but that is up to you to try and see how it feels.

Incidentally I wouldn't bother trying to adjust the number of hardpoints on the craft too much.

The game will not support more than 5 and can be a bit buggy.

The UI also has no support and would need a significant redesign in order to work properly.

[thothkins]

1. Not having a cannon on a fighter aircraft is frankly dumb. Please allow me to select the role for my aircraft instead of pigeon-holing it into a missile truck, which frankly, are of questionable use.

The missile truck with alenium and plasma missiles are invaluable when it comes to taking out some of the larger UFOS.

2. The weapon compliment for the planes is too small and reloading takes too long. It doesn't take 12 hours to refuel a plane. You can refuel a plane in the air. You can get a full compliment of fuel. So the turnaround times for the fighters on the ground is too long.

It used to be 4 (not quite up to the spec you gave ) Mid-air refuelling came up a while ago and (yes, I'm going to) was shot down. Refuelling times came up again in the last couple of days.

3. Because of points 1 and 2, I very rarely can engage in two fights if two (or several) UFOs appear. Either because it takes 11 hours to fuel and rearm a plane (which I assure you, it does not).

That would seem to be the argument in the turnaround times thread too. More broadly though, I don;t think you are supposed to be able to tackle all of the UFOs. As the Invasion progresses, there supposed to be an (oh no not again) air of near desperation to find a solution. No alien base farming in Xenonauts!

4. The Air Combat mini-game is a lot of fun and I like it, but the least fun is not being able to play.

I find it to be a lot of fun too. While it's being tweaked and balanced I hope the Devs consider having a tougher version as a separate mini game. I would have huge amounts of fun with it.

Currently in January, I'm just falling behind the curve a bit with medium craft that have escorts. But plasma gatlings are coming and a new craft isn't far away. Hoping to hold out until then.

[Ishantil]

I tip my hat to your puns, sir. Good show!

I'm pretty sure I've seen 11 hours for refueling. And notably, loading missiles onto a plane doesn't take long. Running the shells into the vulcan cannon is done by machine and doesn't take that long either. And you can refuel while you're doing it. Four hours is closer to what I was thinking.

This is life and death, being able to shoot down UFOs is one of humanity's top priorities.

I will take a look for the "turnaround" thread you mentioned.

[thothkins]

experimental build 5 has adjusted the refuel timings I think. SO, it should be going in the right direction.

[Commissar Pancakes]

I tip my hat to your puns, sir. Good show!

Nooooooooo!!! Don't encourage him!!!!!

[EchoFourDelta]

If the situation's super-bad, and stuff's burning down, and you have strike craft coming back and about to touch down, and they need back into the fight *NOW*? As long as the wings aren't falling off, you can get a plane back up in the air inside 20 minutes, 15 if the ground crew's shit-hot. And even if you're not trying to get a massive turnaround effort going, you can push quite a few thousand liters per minute through a fuel line into a fighter's guts. This is a minutes-long operation to get things topped off again.

[Ishantil]

I was not able to find any time frames in a quick internet search, but I work with some air force folks, and I was going to ask them. Assuming you don't have to fix the aircraft, you can get it back up pretty fast (I quoted four hours because I thought it would work well with game balance).

The turnaround times in this game are long, for game balance, I suppose. But being able to shoot down more UFOs would also expose you to more danger, as well as spread thin your dropships.

[thothkins]

Nooooooooo!!! Don't encourage him!!!!!

Just jealous, because your pithy remarks fall as flat as a panca...ah, never mind.

Refuelling is faster in the new build. I've been caught twice waiting for craft to be ready and they're just sitting there. The real test will come in a few game month;s time when a quick turnaround really helps - taking down larger craft and dealing with waves of more tricky UFOs.

On the other hand, I forgot that a Foxtrot won;t be able to take out a Light Scout by itself. I had to run away and wait for the Condor's to refuel.

[EchoFourDelta]

Something else to keep in mind, if you're going for an added degree of realism in the "defense simulator" (One can go on and on about dissonance and suspension of disbelief, but it's like any sort of fiction. Fantastical is to be expected and welcomed in the development and portrayal of the universe/gameplay/experience we're immersing ourselves in. It's fiction. But dear Lord, get the mundane and familiar stuff right.), aircraft weaponry doesn't affect flight speed *THAT* much. Someone brought up the point "Well, the interceptor has to catch up to the UFO." If the weight of a pair of missiles or an extra hundred or so rounds of rotary cannon ammunition is slowing it down to the degree that it can't move on station and effect an interception, that particular aerial platform isn't going to be catching up to and engaging that target to begin with. It's not like, say, an F-18 is doing the equivalent of kicking in the Vortech supercharger and doubling its speed once it fires a few cannon rounds off, or lets go with an AMRAAM and lets off that weight. Very small change in mass, very small change in speed. Give us something plausible on the mundane and it's a lot easier to accept the fantastical.

A lot of balancing can be done on the personal end of things; once you've established the aliens' capabilities in-universe, take a look at what we had back in 1980 or so; the stuff we see in-game is even supposed to be a bit more advanced than that, based on tech developed and lessons learned from the first encounter. Somehow, capability went backward in time to slower aircraft, payloads that a World War II fighter would laugh at, and missile engagements barely outside of "break a pool cue and stab the aircraft with it" range.

Edited July 27, 2013 by EchoFourDelta

[GizmoGomez]

Game balance comes before realism, just saying. Not happy about it, but that's the way it's got to be.

That being said, if we can make a balanced game more realistic, then we'll have a win all around.

As far as the pitiful missile lock ranges, that's because the missiles are modified to seek out the faint radiation coming from the UFOs, and they have to be close enough to detect that radiation for you to get a lock. The usual detection methods (IR for the Sidewinders, right?) don't work effectively due to the UFO's construction.

As far as munitions weighing down the aircraft, the in game explanation is that they've traded munitions for fuel, not for gains in speed. Also, the aircraft has significantly more armor than the norm to protect against plasma bolts. So, massive amounts of extra fuel and armor would weigh down the aircraft more, leading to a smaller payload. I dunno if that's realistic, that's just the explanation.

[Ishantil]

As EchoFourDelta indicated, we're not talking about a bomb payload, here, we're talking a few extra missiles. Yeah, the AIM-54 Phoenix is big, but an F-14 Tomcat could carry six. And it was worried about Soviet fighters and bombers, not custom designed to fight aliens. Two different paradigms, there.

The numbers need a lot of jiggering, and even after the game comes out, one of the first mods is going to be to re-balance the aircraft weaponry.

Another thing is that an AWACS bird can paint a target nice and hot for a radar guided missile to hit. The AIM-7F Sparrow debuted in 1976 and carries a 40 Kg warhead (versus the AIM-9 Sidewinder at 9.7Kg) . Easily adaptable to a shaped charge. Flies at Mach 4.

Obviously if you can find the UFOs with a ground based radar array from 1979, painting it with an E-2C Hawkeye would be no problem (flight operational in 1973). So the missile range thing is a bunch of malarkey.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Ishantil
Added details

[GizmoGomez]

All of the planes in the game are retrofitted to fight aliens. And did I ever mention bombs?

[thothkins]

So the missile range thing is a bunch of malarkey.

steady on Ishantil

Say we make a F-16 derivative craft act like something a causal wiki user would recognise.

The F-16 has an internal M61 Vulcan cannon and 11 locations for mounting weapons and other mission equipment.

Would making use of all these hardpoints (leaving aside any possible maximum game limits), but lowering the impact they make on a UFO (simple handwavium) make for a better experience?

There has been a general trend to make Air combat so simple that there's now an auto resolve. Part of that was lowering the count for the MIGs. With the Xenonauts air combat being rather good, there's also the issue that it becomes more important to the game than it was intended to be.

Personally, I'd love for the higher difficulty tiers to unlock more from air combat. I'd love it to extend further into Apocalypse territory and have Counter measure pods, Drop tanks, HARMs for targeting alien bases, flares for interceptors escorting a chinook to the crash site etc.

To it's credit, I think the Xenonauts air combat is good enough that we're having these discussions.

Funding nations: No, you can't get the dial-a-yield B61 nuke for your aircraft!

[EchoFourDelta]

The air combat *is* fun; as Thothkins mentioned, it's a great aspect that I think could be expanded on. I personally don't get the feel that it's overimportant. It can take some degree of skill, yes, but so does positioning and directing the advance, contact, and all actions following that of 20+ little army men fighting aliens.

Also, heck, that reminds me. The whole "tracking radiation" thing. Targets like UFOs would allow a pilot to fire a HARM in a "defensive shot" configuration. Rip off a volley of HARMs (air-to-air ones, even!) reverse course, and burn out. Tracking and chasing UFOs is for the birds. Let the missiles do it!

[Ishantil]

I agree that the the air combat is by far the most sophisticated that I've seen in this type of game. I love that I'm so worked up about it, believe it or not. It's got a lot more fun and actual tactical choices than I was expecting.

But the handwavium makes my brain itch! Graaaah. Basically the F-16 and the MiG-31 were both terrible choices to derive the aircraft from. The first is designed to be a light interceptor. A short range one! And the MiG-31 was awfully good at going in straight lines. But it's not a particularly good aircraft to shoot down UFOs. Because UFOs can turn. Really fast. And then shoot you in the face with rayguns!

I would have used an F-15C and an Su-27. The United States figured out that it's awfully nice to have a gun on a plane. When the F-4s were being obliterated in Vietnam. And being able to turn is good. The F-4 was bad at that. Does this sound familiar?

[Jean-Luc]

I'm sure someone's already mention it but it's a game Ishantil. The primary concern is game balance and design, realistic portrayal of aircraft is somewhere near the bottom of the priority list.