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thothkins

Grenades - or things I am using in 19.4

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I'm in the middle of January. So far I've not invested a cent in armour or weapons for the troops. At first this was so I could get bases up and running (not so much a choice as a funding necessity).

However, now I find I've simply waiting for the top tier equipment. The reasons are the magical grenades and missiles.

Once the research into the "Explosives" topics has been completed you get infinite grenades and rocket launcher missiles of that tier. I nearly caved in before plasma tech came around, but I'm glad I didn't. The soldiers are extremely accurate with the grenades and the plasma missiles wipe out anything that's a threat.

As long as I'm cautious, there's no technology imperative to upgrade as the game does it instantly and magically for me.

I'm also not having to ration the grenades or missiles, which was always a big thing for me, as they are free regardless of any alien components.

It's a far cry from the builds where every weapon was taken along as each had it's place. Now, I wonder why everyone doesn't carry a rocket launcher.

I also find that in larger ships I don;t really need the breach trooper very much. The aliens are either coming out of the craft or are falling back far enough in the ships that there's not the immediate threat there was in the smaller craft.

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How many grenades / rockets are you taking into battle on each soldier? Aaron may need to look at increasing their weight.

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The main limit on the number is the storage capacity more than exploiting the strength stat (although I'm giving them slightly into the red on weight for as long as possible).

So it's 1 rocket for each row in the backpack and 2 on the belt. Grenades in every other free slot, including beside rockets in the backpack.

For the non rocket launchers, its a medpack, 1 spare ammo clip and then grenades in every available slot.

Bear in mind that no soldier now has any armour, which would have made a difference and there's no breach shield being used either now.

Although they are all carrying huge amounts of grenades, this would still be viable even with quite a few less. I've just completed a crashed Cruiser and a terror mission without returning to base with grenades and rockets to spare.

I was seeing this more as an issue with the easy and infinite availability of the technology, as much as strength and weights.

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Would AP cost influence your decision?

For example if the backpack slots cost a much larger AP amount to drag a grenade out of before you could throw it would you be less likely to take lots?

Or would you just have to remember to refill your belt after each little engagement?

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Would there be similar penalties for taking everything else out of your backpack? I imagine that the grenades aren't actually in the pack, but are attached to the outside for easier access.

Sgt thothkins: Gaaah reaper! No worries. I've got that grenade. Where is it? Sandwiches, Rough Guide to Kazakhstan, knitting.... Gaaah Reaper! >Chomp<

To solve it, reduce availability of free grenades incorporating advanced technology. This is the biggest problem. it's not space or APs. I'd still carry them if you increased APs and decreased space. I'd just throw fewer of them in a turn. But that's OK, I still have a squad of 8 guys with lots of them, no time limits to the mission and an infinite supply back at the base.

that's off the top of my head. But it's what I'm struck most by when I get the tech upgrade. I don;t have to do any manufacturing for it yet all my aircraft and key weapons are upgraded, making the missions far easier.

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Yeah that would be my first thought as well.

Grenades and rockets should really be an option the player has to work for.

If you want to blow stuff up and take the easy way then you need to pay for it.

The problem is how far would you have to push up the grenade prices (cash plus materials) before spamming then became less of an option?

Then there is the disconnect between the big aircraft missiles being free and the small grenades having a cost.

I think adding a cost back to missiles is unlikely so that needs to be worked out as well.

Would keeping the costs low for alenium explosives but attaching a large production time for the processing and stabilisation of the explosives (fluff text off the top of my head) work?

You would not be financially penalised for using large amounts of explosives beyond the destruction of enemy gear but supplies would likely be limited unless you set up a large loss making production facility just for explosives.

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Maybe we should look at the frequency of grenades destroying the alien's equipment? It happens frequently with rockets, but much less so with grenades. If grenades destroyed gear more often, I'd probably cut back a bit on grenade use.

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Grenades, sure. Rockets you generally DO pay for, each and every time you hit a non-reaper alien. It's opportunity cost, true, but the weapons you destroy add up.

But yeah, what Dranak said. I stopped using rockets in my main squad after that change. I still use them in the Beta squad since, well, they have no chance in hell of every getting statted up properly, so throwing them against a battleship worth of aliens kind of sucks using normal equipment.

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The problem is that grenades still have too much range and AI reaction fire doesn't happen often enough.

You should have to get nearly on top of the alien to use one. Why don't you think the "real" Army only carries grenades? Because if that's all they had they'd all be killed before they could get close enough to use one! You have to suppress the enemy to get up that close in real life (or find a sneaky way up that isn't covered by enemy fire like a back entrance, tunnel, or sewer.)

The only other way to close without getting killed is if there is cover everywhere so you can cover "hop" up to grenade range. If Goldhawk fixes AI reaction fire to make the aliens shoot "cover hoppers" more often and you cut down how far you can throw a grenade this problem will "solve" itself. Also, AI still has issues with not covering more than one angle of attack and each other, so that usually leaves a way to "cover hop" up to range.

Increasing the weight or cost of grenades won't change anything really (unless you make them ridiculously heavy, which is silly.) The mechanics need to change.

As far as the rockets go, probably COULD solve that one by making them weigh more.

If you were truly evil you could give rockets and grenades an individual chance to blow up whenever the soldier is hit by plasma weapons. If that were to happen, than the more you carried the greater the chance there would be an "accident". Now, that would definitely discourage explosives spamming.

BTW, thothkins, that is a very clever strategy, I would have never tried something like that.

Edited by StellarRat

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Good point about the destroyed equipment. I still use the rockets to take out the aliens my grenadiers can;t reach though, even with a loss of equipment. It saves li'l Xenonaut lives.

I'm not that stingy. Hey Sgt! it's 20 cents for that sachet of mayo in the canteen! guards! seize that non payer!

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Are you loosing out on a bunch of accuracy boosts from not using rifles so much anymore? I would think that gun accuracy is more important in the long run? or is that a myth?

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Probably a little

Date: Jan 14

Missions - 22-27

TUs - 84-102

Res - 79-84

Str - 93-100 (7 on 100)

Acc - 71-82

Rfx - 53-61

Bra- 58-61

That reflects the top 8 soldiers at the base. Putting a little extra in the backpack is the only thing I've been actively doing.

Gun accuracy should be more important throughout, but doesn't seem to be for me in this play through.

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Rather than increasing grenade weight I am going to try adding overdamage to them, as suggested here, and also reduce the throwing range by a fair bit.

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Or just give the aliens bats. After a few grenades get line driven back at the thrower I think they would be a little less toss happy ;-p

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worried that if it's much less than the pistol, I'm going to have troops blowing themselves up...again.

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worried that if it's much less than the pistol, I'm going to have troops blowing themselves up...again.
Well, that is one of problems with using grenades, unless you have cover to duck behind you can kill/wound yourself pretty easily. Another reason why grenades aren't used too often.

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The problem isn't grenades and throwing range ... The problem is sight distance and combat range. If you increased sight range by 4x grenade range we wouldn't be running around with a pack full of nades, we'd be running around with packs full of ammo for our weapon.

It was typical for a soldier to carry 100-200 rnds of ammo and a few grenades ... That should be the base model and tweaked from there.

For the past months I'm reading balance issues and the developer is chasing their tail because we're stuck at such a low sight distance (combat distance) that it's one tweak forward then two tweaks back. For once I'd like to see combat range set at 40 tiles and weapon accuracy modeled for that change. Those topics are in constant debate where I see players wanting an increase.

If everyone wants to chase their tails adjusting weapons and grenades to "fit" a low combat range then I wish them luck because in a few months you'll be debating again about the same issue but in reverse.

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The problem isn't grenades and throwing range ... The problem is sight distance and combat range. If you increased sight range by 4x grenade range we wouldn't be running around with a pack full of nades, we'd be running around with For the past months I'm reading balance issues and the developer is chasing their tail because we're stuck at such a low sight distance (combat distance) that it's one tweak forward then two tweaks back. For once I'd like to see combat range set at 40 tiles and weapon accuracy modeled for that change. Those topics are in constant debate where I see players wanting an increase.

packs full of ammo for our weapon.

It was typical for a soldier to carry 100-200 rnds of ammo and a few grenades ... That should be the base model and tweaked from there.

If everyone wants to chase their tails adjusting weapons and grenades to "fit" a low combat range then I wish them luck because in a few months you'll be debating again about the same issue but in reverse.

That is certainly part of the problem, but the reason the sight range is compressed is that it is basically impossible to have maps at the detail level in Xenonauts that are truly large enough for more realistic distances. It's totally a hardware problem. What you're asking for would require maps that take up so much storage that the game would have to come on a box of DVDs and would be impossible to download in a reasonable. Along with that it's unlikely your PC could deal with the scope of the maps and would slow to a crawl for even the simplest actions in ground combat even if you could fit the game on your hard drive. I've played games with realistic combat ranges, but the detail ALWAYS suffers and you have to have some type of map zooming and generic terrain objects to fix the storage problems.

We are stuck with the engagement ranges we have unless you just say, "Everyone can see everywhere and the hit chance is 100% nearly across the map." That wouldn't be much fun would it?

Edited by StellarRat

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We are stuck with the engagement ranges we have unless you just say, "Everyone can see everywhere and the hit chance is 100% nearly across the map." That wouldn't be much fun would it?

Well, I didn't intend to suggest flipping the model around to that extreme. I view the current combat range to be the deadly range. The mapping guidelines have big maps at 70x70 ... If all the maps were that size and sight range half of that (35) then weapon accuracy could be tweaked to give reasonable results between 15-35 tile range. Once the engagement range drops below 15 then we should expect "one shot, one kills" results.

I view ground combat in this game as akin to miniature rules that have been out there since the '70s .. Those rules have been tweaked for 40 years with a very good balance for realism/game play. One rule I never see is "sight restriction" ... if you can see it, you can shoot it ... get close enough, frag it. I firmly believe that sight range is the problem, once sight range increases then we have more room to tweak "any" weapon effectiveness easier than now.

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Well, I didn't intend to suggest flipping the model around to that extreme. I view the current combat range to be the deadly range. The mapping guidelines have big maps at 70x70 ... If all the maps were that size and sight range half of that (35) then weapon accuracy could be tweaked to give reasonable results between 15-35 tile range. Once the engagement range drops below 15 then we should expect "one shot, one kills" results.

I view ground combat in this game as akin to miniature rules that have been out there since the '70s .. Those rules have been tweaked for 40 years with a very good balance for realism/game play. One rule I never see is "sight restriction" ... if you can see it, you can shoot it ... get close enough, frag it. I firmly believe that sight range is the problem, once sight range increases then we have more room to tweak "any" weapon effectiveness easier than now.

Well, I think they've been "tweaking" things for quite a while now. I'm sure we'll get to a decent compromise at some point. I personally believe that a balance can be found with the current sight distances. I like not knowing exactly what type of terrain is up ahead. Granted, if you play enough you'll memorize the maps anyway. Most tactical games reveal the map but not the enemies and civilians or the simply show everything up to the map edge and the map scrolls. I'm not 100% certain what the best method is.

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Hi guys,

Last week I did play a little of 19.4 version and arrived at very similar conclusions - grenades are the only viable weapon on this build. Im including a save file if you wish to check out my setup's. At this point (15th of February) I have just researched fission explosives thus grenades become even more powerful, though I still use precision plasmas.

http://www.fileconvoy.com/dfl.php?id=g8eef1808b2cd718e999335942758f08f7b25ecb19

So even though the game became unplayable if one uses only guns, I found that it's still fun, but restrictive in tactics, to toss around grenades.

My impression that you guys are trying too much to make the game hard, rather then enjoyable. Challenging is fun, but not hitting a target with you LMG/caster 2 tiles away is just frustrating and bad balancing.

Also I think you have serious issues with you to hit probabilities. I don't know how you compute and apply them to the game, but after experimentation, I found that even if the to hit probability is represented as 70%, its more closely to 25% - just save a game, make a shot, record the outcome, and load back the game to repeat the shot, and so on... you might start looking at your subsequent shots not as independent event, but as a series of dependent events.

EDIT: Oh and I forgot one more issue with the build - the time it takes to refuel and rearm the fighters is insane! It should not take more than an our and this places unrequited restrictions on the planes and the game - if we cant have the cash and resources to have a fleet of birds, that at least we should be able to exploit the few ones that we got, and not wait for 9h to refuel a tank or charge a battery... :mad:

Edited by tirlimpimpim

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Also I think you have serious issues with you to hit probabilities. I don't know how you compute and apply them to the game, but after experimentation, I found that even if the to hit probability is represented as 70%, its more closely to 25% - just save a game, make a shot, record the outcome, and load back the game to repeat the shot, and so on... you might start looking at your subsequent shots not as independent event, but as a series of dependent events.

I think Aaron said that there is a bug in the to hit calculations.

Also, many games save the random number seed, so the sequence of dice rolls will always be the same after a reload until you do something different that throws the sequence off. The whole topic of computer generated random numbers is pretty interesting (hint: without special hardware they aren't truly random.) Anyway, I'm not sure how or if Xenonauts does anything special with the random number seed. There are also "good" random number generators and "bad" ones. Some are more random than others and some have bugs that make them favor numbers and ranges that they obviously shouldn't.

Edited by StellarRat

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I think Aaron said that there is a bug in the to hit calculations.

OK, I haven't been reading the forum extensively, so I have missed that one.

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