OK, Chris, Indestructable Aircraft, can we at least have a startup check box?

[StellarRat]

Can you make this a startup parameter (like Ironman and Difficulty are now), so the average Joe doesn't have to go in and mod an XML file?

[GizmoGomez]

I disagree, because it'd have to be rebalanced to actually work with destructible aircraft. If it's a checkbox, then it's an official "game feature" and Goldhawk would have to balance it, which isn't going to happen.

It's just a simple true/false flag in the xml files somewhere, it's not difficult to change it. However, balancing it properly, there lines the challenge.

[StellarRat]

I just consider it a tweak to difficulty. No additional balancing is needed.

[RawCode]

it alter entire geos balance, immortal aircraft allow devs to provide nohope missions, when player just must lose crafts, no matter how well he plays.

with checkbox such missions will requre 2x coding (checked and unchecked version) and other additional work to keep both versions playable.

Edited July 14, 2013 by RawCode

[GizmoGomez]

it alter entire geos balance, immortal aircraft allow devs to provide nohope missions, when player just must lose crafts, no matter how well he plays.

with checkbox such missions will requre 2x coding (checked and unchecked version) and other additional work to keep both versions playable.

That's what I'm saying.

I recommend just changing the flag yourself, sorry mate.

[StellarRat]

So does playing Ironman. I don't see why this is any different. You know going in you've made the game much tougher.

[shabowie]

So does playing Ironman. I don't see why this is any different. You know going in you've made the game much tougher.

Right.

[ThunderGr]

So does playing Ironman. I don't see why this is any different. You know going in you've made the game much tougher.

+1

[WalrusJones]

It either needs to be incredibly configurable, or something that can be turned off in game.

[StellarRat]

It either needs to be incredibly configurable, or something that can be turned off in game.

Again, why? Most games once you set the difficulty you're stuck with it OR your previous saves are no good. I know a few that can change parameters in mid-game, but many can't. What's the big deal? I'm sure the default would be "recoverable fighters" for new games. The manual's going to tell you that the game will be harder if you turn this on/off. Do you really think the players need to coddled that much? You want a "nanny" game that doesn't allow failure ever?

[WalrusJones]

Again, why? Most games once you set the difficulty you're stuck with it OR your previous saves are no good. I know a few that can change parameters in mid-game, but many can't. What's the big deal? I'm sure the default would be "recoverable fighters" for new games. The manual's going to tell you that the game will be harder if you turn this on/off. Do you really think the players need to coddled that much? You want a "nanny" game that doesn't allow failure ever?

No, I mean "Able to be turned off at start."

By in game, I mean within the runtime of the EXE, not notepad.

I don't know of any toggleable difficulty settings in a save file, and there probably shouldn't be one. (Albiet, demotion systems that allow you to go drop down difficulty levels are generally not bad, given, you cannot go easy on the hard parts without going easy forever more.)

Please, don't jump to conclusions, and don't waste posts like this.

[StellarRat]

No, I mean "Able to be turned off at start."

By in game, I mean within the runtime of the EXE, not notepad.

I don't know of any toggleable difficulty settings in a save file, and there probably shouldn't be one. (Albiet, demotion systems that allow you to go drop down difficulty levels are generally not bad, given, you cannot go easy on the hard parts without going easy forever more.)

Please, don't jump to conclusions, and don't waste posts like this.

That's exactly what I said in my first post. Yes, I mean a checkbox that comes up at the start of any new game just like "Ironman" and the difficulty selection checkboxes.

[WalrusJones]

I was creating a complete position on it, I also feel that the game should have moddable options for it as well: Recovery chance, repair time modifier, recovery time, and a recovery option: *Do you want to repair aircraft X when buying a new one may be faster.*

[StellarRat]

I was creating a complete position on it, I also feel that the game should have moddable options for it as well: Recovery chance, repair time modifier, recovery time, and a recovery option: *Do you want to repair aircraft X when buying a new one may be faster.*

Yes, fully moddable is always better, but I'd be happy with ON and OFF on the game start screen.

[Aaron]

As Chris has said, this will go in eventually, but I imagine it will be an XML option rather than an in-game toggle. We have a responsibility to provide a packaged and complete game to the player; asking them to pick options they don't really understand right at the start of the game is the game design equivalent of us throwing up ours hands and saying "We can't be bothered, you finish it?"

If I get time, then after release I would like to release a sort of semi-official "classic mode" mod that re-introduces things like manufacturing for profit, using alien weapons etc... this would seem a good candidate to add to that.

[Gauddlike]

The main difference between the indestructible aircraft and iron man mode is that iron man doesn't alter the actual game balance.

It does make the game harder to complete as it locks out save scumming from the players possible responses but the action of the game itself is no different.

The indestructible interceptors do alter how the game responds and if added as an official game option then the game should really be balanced so that both versions are playable.

If a potential option is buried in an xml file as a tool for modders then it does not really need to be supported in the same way.

The modder should create their own balance if they choose to use it.

It is all about appearances really.

An official feature needs to be officially supported, a player adjusted modification, however slight, does not.

[Queamin]

As Chris has said, this will go in eventually, but I imagine it will be an XML option rather than an in-game toggle. We have a responsibility to provide a packaged and complete game to the player; asking them to pick options they don't really understand right at the start of the game is the game design equivalent of us throwing up ours hands and saying "We can't be bothered, you finish it?"

If I get time, then after release I would like to release a sort of semi-official "classic mode" mod that re-introduces things like manufacturing for profit, using alien weapons etc... this would seem a good candidate to add to that.

That sound great, that should please a lot of people.

[GizmoGomez]

If I get time, then after release I would like to release a sort of semi-official "classic mode" mod that re-introduces things like manufacturing for profit, using alien weapons etc... this would seem a good candidate to add to that.

Awesome, love it. You could even, once it's fully complete, bundle it with the actual game, and make it a checkbox in the start game screen to use the mod instead of the vanilla game. Or maybe as a DLC (cost, if any, is up to you), so the extra files aren't downloaded needlessly by those who wouldn't use them.

[StellarRat]

As Chris has said, this will go in eventually, but I imagine it will be an XML option rather than an in-game toggle. We have a responsibility to provide a packaged and complete game to the player; asking them to pick options they don't really understand right at the start of the game is the game design equivalent of us throwing up ours hands and saying "We can't be bothered, you finish it?"

If I get time, then after release I would like to release a sort of semi-official "classic mode" mod that re-introduces things like manufacturing for profit, using alien weapons etc... this would seem a good candidate to add to that.

I guess I'm not following your line of reasoning. When I check "Ironman" I understand that I can't load a save everytime somehing goes wrong. If I check the "No aircraft recovery" checkbox, I'd understand my aircraft losses would be permanent and the game will be harder. I'm assuming the default would be unchecked meaning all aircraft were recoverable. Anyone with a grain of intelligence would have to know that checking something that it normally unchecked is going to change the game. A lot of them would probably look at the documentation to see how that would effect game play. There is no balancing that needs to be done. It just makes the game harder because you've balanced it for recoverable aircraft and "Normal". No big deal. The player elected the option, so they have no one to blame but themselves if it's too hard for them. Lots of games have a ton of optional parameters. Normally I don't start changing them unless I understand what I'm doing. I'm not sure why this seems like such a bad idea to you. Edited July 15, 2013 by StellarRat

[Jean-Luc]

I think it's because the implications of destructible aircraft are much more difficult to understand for an unexperienced player than those of ironman.

After all the game is balanced around recoverable aircraft but a new player is probably going to assume it's merely a "noob setting" and then when he loses a couple of planes and it costs him the game they'll be like "wtf just happened?". As previously mentioned ironman doesn't change the balance of the game the way interceptor perma-death does.

[StellarRat]

I think it's because the implications of destructible aircraft are much more difficult to understand for an unexperienced player than those of ironman.

After all the game is balanced around recoverable aircraft but a new player is probably going to assume it's merely a "noob setting" and then when he loses a couple of planes and it costs him the game they'll be like "wtf just happened?". As previously mentioned ironman doesn't change the balance of the game the way interceptor perma-death does.

So, I ask, again would someone check a box without reading the manual OR even the tool tip for the setting? Even a tool tip could give you enough information to go on. "Your aircraft can be totally destroyed in combat. The game will be much harder. New aircraft are very expensive." Seriously, this seems like a silly line of reasoning. Edited July 15, 2013 by StellarRat

[Chris]

Iron Man is an added difficulty level that disables an external element of the game - repeatedly reloading saved games. It doesn't actually change the game logic at all, it just changes the way the player interacts with the game.

The same with explanatory tooltips - they'll be an overlay explaining what each screen does. They change the way a player interacts with the game (are they informative or annoying?) but they don't actually change the game logic itself.

Recoverable interceptors is a fundamental game mechanic and as I've pointed out many times before, it's not possible to balance the game if it is switched off unless you're also happy with the biggest factor affecting a player's chance of winning the game being how many aircraft they lose in the air combat.

Switching it off fundamentally changes the underlying game, so there won't be a tickbox for it. Even if we wanted to, you'd probably also want to lower the price and build time of aircraft if you turned off recoverable interceptors so a simple checkbox is not a good solution. A mod is a much better idea.

[Dranak]

As Chris has said, this will go in eventually, but I imagine it will be an XML option rather than an in-game toggle. We have a responsibility to provide a packaged and complete game to the player; asking them to pick options they don't really understand right at the start of the game is the game design equivalent of us throwing up ours hands and saying "We can't be bothered, you finish it?"

If I get time, then after release I would like to release a sort of semi-official "classic mode" mod that re-introduces things like manufacturing for profit, using alien weapons etc... this would seem a good candidate to add to that.

That sounds like it would be awesome, and hope it comes to fruition.

[StellarRat]

...it's not possible to balance the game if it is switched off unless you're also happy with the biggest factor affecting a player's chance of winning the game being how many aircraft they lose in the air combat...

I wouldn't have a problem with that. That's what I've been trying to say. Also, I don't believe that is the biggest factor in whether you win or lose. If you suck at ground combat or don't do enough research that is far worse. Anyway, it's sounds like it's not going to happen so that's it then, finis. Edited July 16, 2013 by StellarRat