Less top heavy rank structure?

[shabowie]

I remember in original xcom only a certain percentage of your soldiers would get promoted to certain levels. In this game if I don't suffer constant casualties it seems like all my guys end up as high level officers after a few missions. Will this ever change?

Would be cool if there was a split track where enlisted guys would go up a larger number of NCO ranks and only a certain percentage of troops (like maybe 10-20%) would ever go officer track.

Just an idea.

[ThunderGr]

With Chris's current set of mind, I doubt it. Well, he may try, but, I guess, after the first few whinings about the difficulty, he will make 'indestructible soldiers' and will say to the ones that will protest about that 'they are just the louder bunch' and that 'most people like it better like that' and that 'after the game is released even those that are skeptical now will like it'...

Well, I might sound offensive but I never liked white to be rationalized as black just to defend an irrational decision. It is his game, he makes it the way he likes it but, hey! don't tell me that this is how it should be, because it enhances the gaming experience. The next thing I am going to hear as an argument is that this is 'the most realistic way'...humph.

[shabowie]

Second month in most of my front line troops are Majors and up. Major immersion breaker.

US special forces is FULL of career NCOs dudes. Rank system needs a major overhaul, no military could be this top heavy.

PS. I edited out the quote about invincble airplanes. i hate the Cheese Plane stuff as well, but I don't want this thread to be about that.

Edited July 12, 2013 by shabowie

[DNK]

Easy xml fix in one of the main config files. Just increase AP progress needed for each rank, like double-triple it.

[shabowie]

Easy xml fix in one of the main config files. Just increase AP progress needed for each rank, like double-triple it.

That wouldn't really fix it right? Still end up with a kind of stable progression of everyone up the ranks but more slowly. What I'm saying is only a certain number of guys should be promoted to the higher officer ranks for a force of size X.

[RawCode]

It shoud be simple rule, for each rank A xenonaut only X rank B xenonauts.

Something like only one sergant per 10 privates, this will allow higher rank xenonauts only if you have large total amount of xenonauts.

[Max_Caine]

There have been loads of previous threads on this. Sifting through them, I've picked out developer responses here and here and a hardening of attitude here. In all these threads, no-one has given a good gameplay reason why ranks should be fewer nearer the top. The arguments have been along the lines of "it doesn't feel right". There is a gameplay reason why troopers should be restricted to the higher ranks. Morale!

Allow me to explain. A trooper provides a rank bonus to morale for all soliders within 8 tiles. This bonus stacks once, so up to two ranks can grant their morale benefit to troopers within range, and the highest ranks are always considered when calculating morale bonuses. Conversly, a morale penalty is applied to all soliders when a solider is killed and the higher the rank the larger the morale penalty. Therefore, in a squad with a high percentage of high-ranking troopers the chance of soliders being affected by psychic powers drops significantly as the soliders form a "support network" of morale boosts which add to the current morale of the solider affected. Furthermore, the effect of loosing a high-ranking solider is negated providing a solider remains within 8 tiles of 2 other soliders with equal rank to the solider who was lost, or severely dented if within range of 1 other solider with equal rank to the solider that was lost. I.E. a team of three soliders that maintains a loose triangle is a minature support group that mutually assists each other against psychic attacks ad the loss of other buddies. Thus, if access to higher ranks were restricted, troopers would loose access to this support network which trivalises psychic powers and morale.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Max_Caine

[WalrusJones]

So there is a mechanical reason.

[thothkins]

Thanks for going to the trouble of pulling the links Max.

For me the issues are:-

1) Having everyone as a commander in a small, elite squad that's actually commanded by the player looks unrealistic and a little silly.

2) The ranks are achieved too quickly, meaning that every one is an Major or whatever immediately. It takes away some of the sense of achievement and feeds into point 1)

Solutions:-

1) Simply rename the ranks lowering them a little. This won't interfere with the mechanics of anything in the slightest. Numerous options have been given.

2) As the game is in balancing, tweak the amount of experience required to level. In 19.4 the soldiers still look to be racing up, and I have a team of majors after 10 missions and two months of game time. This would have an affect on the morale aura. However, since alien psionics are also still part of balancing and have been seen so rarely, I feel there's scope for discussion there.

[lightgemini]

Limited rank slots is very important for inmersion and RPG element of the game. Knowing you only will have 1 colonel or 2 commanders at any given time makes those soldiers special. THey were the first to get there by personal merit, they gained the honor in the battlefield, they are the best you have and a big morale boost and inspiration for everybody. And when they die it makes it more tragic and/should be a very big hit in morale for the squad.Then lower ranks take the place with maybe some suspense/rivality in who will be promoted etc.

Not only this is healthy for RPG or writing down stories, it adds more attachment to your virtual xenonauts and more feeling whn you lose them. Then there is the morale mechanics that Max pointed out that can be made to have an important effect in battle, because now the rank-morale feature is useless with everybody reaching top ranks.

Its time used to develop that feature that is going to waste. With a bit more work it could be fully usefull and even add more charm and tactic to the game. Dont forget the game is in the end a sum of all its part and every feature counts.

[Kentaro]

Just because the US Special Forces all have NCOs doesn't mean Xcom needs to have that.

Let me pull a few pointers out of my rear (in no particular order)

Stargate SG1: Almost all (military) members there had the rank of Captain or higher.

Danish Special Forces: Most teams consists of officers, not NCOs.

German Special Forces (KSK): a team (4 Soldiers) is lead by a Sergeant Major, being led by an officer is not uncommon. (regular german army infantry "team" consists of 8-10 men and is led by a corporal or lance corporal, as comparison)

Just because one has a higher rank does not mean they have more command. a Corporal on duty still "outranks" a visiting Brigadier General. During guard duty I had to arrest a Lieutenant-Colonal because he was in a security sensitive area and forgot his credentials.

You (not you) are limiting the concept of a rank hierarchy to the amount of people they can (technically) command. But, again, a certain rank does not automatically give one the right to assume command over a company, batallion or regiment. If you broaden your understanding to the very worldly aspect of paygrade, it will all make sense why these people deserve a promotion.

[Transcendence]

I'm not going to lie, I plan to getting around to delving into my Xenonauts folder and looking for the file that contains the ranks. I'll rename the entire rank structure so that no officers are included in my games. All of my operators work for a living, thank you very much.

[GizmoGomez]

I'm not going to lie, I plan to getting around to delving into my Xenonauts folder and looking for the file that contains the ranks. I'll rename the entire rank structure so that no officers are included in my games. All of my operators work for a living, thank you very much.

Go to the strings.xml folder, and cntl-f "captain". You'll end up with the rank names.

replace the names and short names "Captain" and "Cpt." (Technically, it should be CPT, but whatever).

I used Private (PVT), Private (PV2), Private First Class (PFC), Corporal (CPL), Sergeant (SGT), Lieutenant (LT), Captain (CPT), Major (MAJ). Use whatever you like.

[Simmo753]

i have to say that in EU the ranks where what kept me interested in my soldiers (that and naming them after my friends) i find that the fact that everyone is a commander after a couple of months is ridiculous and ruins my enjoyment of the game, i understand that Chris doesn't want to revisit it and that he see's no point in altering it as it wont affect the mechanics, but surly the greatest point of playing the game is that you feel connected to it. surly it's worth considering the fact that it would increase the enjoyment in the game with little alteration of the game it's self?

[GizmoGomez]

The way I see it, someone (why not me? I'll see what I can do) should just make a mod that everyone likes that renames the ranks and changes the rank images to be correct for those ranks. Then, once everyone likes it, Chris can just go in and change it, without having to think about it, or bother with it beyond that.

I mean, sure, renaming ranks won't change the gameplay, but the "realism" and the "immersion" will be much better.

[thothkins]

there have been quite a few threads just on trying to agree what the ranks should be, so I wish you the very best of luck in summoning the God of Diplomacy* to get that one sorted

*ironically it used to be the Gods of Diplomacy, but they never got on, and fell out over who's turn it was to do the dishes.

[Simmo753]

i think renaming them would be straight forward i think it would take more work to cap the amount of soldiers in each rank as it was in EU though.

[GizmoGomez]

Capping the amount isn't going to make it in; Chris has basically stated that much. He doesn't see the value in that (and I don't either, honestly. I don't care if I have a squad full of the same rank.)

Renaming the ranks, and changing the icons, that might make it, if only because it's so simple and doesn't require hardly any work on Chris's part. Just drag and drop the icons, and rename a few strings in the strings.xml folder. (Ideally, we'd rename all of the ranks wherever they appear in the files. I'd go for "rank.1" "rank.2" etc for simplicities sake.)

[Simmo753]

just answered you post in the mods section, i understand that for many it makes no difference and from a gameplay point of view it doesn't, it's a RPG element that i think makes a vast difference to players immersion in the game though.

[thothkins]

it's a RPG element that i think makes a vast difference to players immersion in the game though.

very, very much so. Particularly considering just how rapid the rise is.

[shabowie]

Thanks for going to the trouble of pulling the links Max.

For me the issues are:-

1) Having everyone as a commander in a small, elite squad that's actually commanded by the player looks unrealistic and a little silly.

2) The ranks are achieved too quickly, meaning that every one is an Major or whatever immediately. It takes away some of the sense of achievement and feeds into point 1)

Solutions:-

1) Simply rename the ranks lowering them a little. This won't interfere with the mechanics of anything in the slightest. Numerous options have been given.

2) As the game is in balancing, tweak the amount of experience required to level. In 19.4 the soldiers still look to be racing up, and I have a team of majors after 10 missions and two months of game time. This would have an affect on the morale aura. However, since alien psionics are also still part of balancing and have been seen so rarely, I feel there's scope for discussion there.

In one of my posts I talked about the idea of two tracks, enlisted and officer. If only a certain percentage of troopers were officers it would look better, then soldiers would be promoted at whatever rate is needed for the mechanical reasons people are citing.

E1 O1, E2 O2, etc., etc., this way the morale boost balance is preserved but aesthetically it looks so much better and not everyone a high ranking officer. The number of the rank level would matter, not whether they were enlisted or officer for gameplay reasons. Private is the same as 2nd LT, Corporal as 1st LT, Sergeant same as Captain, or whatever they want to name the ranks.

Edited July 13, 2013 by shabowie

[GizmoGomez]

just answered you post in the mods section, i understand that for many it makes no difference and from a gameplay point of view it doesn't, it's a RPG element that i think makes a vast difference to players immersion in the game though.

very, very much so. Particularly considering just how rapid the rise is.

Yeah, I agree. I enjoy the RPG aspect of it very much. I just don't have an issue with a special forces team being all ranked the same thing. I mean, technically you're their CO, not one of them.

Anyway, all I'd want is to just lower the ranks used by the game, maybe make the highest rank Major or something.

I'm thinking Private, Private First Class, Corporal, Sergeant, 2nd Lieutenant, Lieutenant, Captain, Major.

Do those sound low enough?

[shabowie]

There have been loads of previous threads on this. Sifting through them, I've picked out developer responses here and here and a hardening of attitude here.

Man this is a bummer. I check back in to see how the game is progressing and it seems like a number of awful "final decisions" have been made by the developer regarding "Invincible Interceptors" and what I would name "Armies of Colonels" which just kills immersion to me and really cheapens the game experience. Really disappointed.

[Simmo753]

yeah that would work better and increasing the xp requirements would slow the promotions down, that would go along way to making a better system, the rank cap is one of the things that stand out to me when i think back to EU though.

[Simmo753]

Man this is a bummer. I check back in to see how the game is progressing and it seems like a number of awful "final decisions" have been made by the developer regarding "Invincible Interceptors" and what I would name "Armies of Colonels" which just kills immersion to me and really cheapens the game experience. Really disappointed.

yeah i'm with you on that, it seems that the developers are more interested in just pushing out the final game rather than polishing it to a shine.