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StellarRat

Another plea to change the accuracy formula! :D

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We'll make the accuracy drop-off per each tile beyond optimal range a moddable number. It's probably something we need to be able to play with.

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Sounds like a good plan.

Would it be possible to do the same with the damage drop off?

For those weapons like plasma that might lose damage faster than a rail gun projectile for example.

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That'd be awesome, yeah! Pretty please, Chris?
Yes, please Chris. That would solve all my concerns about extremely long range shots. If your going to do that is there any chance you could also make the increase in accuracy for short range fire moddable too?

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It is!

You can find it in config.xml.

<ShortRangeHitBonusPerTile>8</ShortRangeHitBonusPerTile> (the number represents the percentage bonus).

As I remember, the bonus is stackable per tile, and starts from 5 tiles out, so that should be a 40% bonus if you're next to the target.

EDIT you can also changeup the kneeling bonus if you feel that it isn't up to scratch:

<KneelingBoost>20</KneelingBoost>

Edited by Max_Caine

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Very good. I'm going to quit whining about the accuracy formula then. I can easily mod up something close to what I want if I don't like how Goldhawk does it in the end. Yea! A small victory to offset the Immortal Fighters! LOL. I did like the mathematical beauty of my formula though.

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@Chris and Max_Caine

It is!

You can find it in config.xml.

<ShortRangeHitBonusPerTile>8</ShortRangeHitBonusPerTile>

Three Qs:
  1. Can this be negative
  2. Can the distance for when it kicks in moddable?
  3. Can we have this value be moddable for every weapon in weapons_gc.xml? (so, a short-range weapon can be very accurate at these short ranges, while a large, sniper weapon would be clumsy at shorter ranges)
Edited by DNK

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Okay, having just tried making that value negative, the answers are:

1) Yes, you can (it has a very pronounced effect).

2) I can't find a value that determines distance - this is probably hardcoded.

3) This is a universal value (config.xml values are usually universal values), and I can't find any xml in weapons_gc which overrides the universal value.

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Having short range accuracy be poor would only work well if the original problem of stopping chance and miss deviation was fixed.

If the missed shots can still deviate through the target tile and cause a hit then you would still rarely miss, even with a 1% displayed hit chance.

If missed shots now cannot deviate through the target tile to avoid that situation then any miss at short range would have a huge deviation angle.

A miss at 20 tiles would deviate by a couple of degrees while a one tile miss would have to deviate by 45 degrees.

That is what that short range hit bonus was supposed to cover if I remember rightly.

I believe the second option was used so shots can no longer deviate through the target tile.

That means any short range miss is pretty wild.

The bonus was added so that shots would miss less often and therefore generate fewer of those wild deviations.

Edited by Gauddlike

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Having short range accuracy be poor would only work well if the original problem of stopping chance and miss deviation was fixed.

If the missed shots can still deviate through the target tile and cause a hit then you would still rarely miss, even with a 1% displayed hit chance.

If missed shots now cannot deviate through the target tile to avoid that situation then any miss at short range would have a huge deviation angle.

A miss at 20 tiles would deviate by a couple of degrees while a one tile miss would have to deviate by 45 degrees.

That is what that short range hit bonus was supposed to cover if I remember rightly.

I believe the second option was used so shots can no longer deviate through the target tile.

That means any short range miss is pretty wild.

The bonus was added so that shots would miss less often and therefore generate fewer of those wild deviations.

I still don't understand why a "MISS" can't just go through a tile. Or simply do zero damage. That way you wouldn't have to worry about wild deviations just to make look like the shot missed. Surely the "to-hit" roll result is known before the shot is drawn going across the screen. So, if the shot is flagged as a "miss" then even if it goes through the target tile it could simply do nothing.

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Yes the miss result is known.

It is also (mostly) unrelated to the stopping chance of a tile so you would still need to roll against the 100% stopping chance of the target enemy if the shot passed through after being generated as a miss.

Two separate functions.

Roll hit or miss.

If hit then decide damage.

If miss then roll against the stopping chance of each tile it passes through to find where the missed shot actually lands.

It might be possible to code the game so that the target tile is classed as having a 0% stopping chance if you have rolled a miss against it.

Shots passing through a 100% sized wall or tank without stopping or damaging them just because you rolled a miss would look a little odd though.

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It might be possible to code the game so that the target tile is classed as having a 0% stopping chance if you have rolled a miss against it.

Shots passing through a 100% sized wall or tank without stopping or damaging them just because you rolled a miss would look a little odd though.

It should be possible to code it so a "miss" always hits the other terrain in a square (if any) or simply goes through the tile WITHOUT damaging the target. That would not look "funny". BTW, is there a bonus to hit large targets like vehicles? There should be.

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Wouldn't that mean even when you miss a target you will always damage its cover?

What about if you are actually shooting at the prop in a certain tile?

Would a miss pass through that prop and potentially hit an enemy on the other side of it who you would normally have found a much more difficult shot?

If you are targeting a 100% cover prop and miss would the shot pass through?

An enemy completely hidden behind that wall or container etc would only be able to be hit if you fire on the object protecting them and miss?

How about if you aim at the corner of a 2x2 enemy?

A missed shot could pass through that part of the vehicle and then generate an automatic hit on the next section of the same vehicle?

All of those would look very odd to me.

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1. Potentially but it could just go through without touching anything in the tile.

2. The code could take into account area fire vs. targeted, if you happen to kill the live object in there well, OOPS!

3. Yes, that's a possibly. Since you missed something you were aiming for that you probably shouldn't have missed I find that not too unreasonable. I suppose the shot could be flagged to just miss every living thing in it's path. However, if you think about the actual odds of that happening they are fairly low because you have to miss what you were aiming for, miss prop too and then get a hit on the target behind. Remember that we are mostly trying to fix close range firing weirdness.

4. I think if you're aiming at props then the chance of hitting a living object using them for cover should be tiny. After all, the game knows if your aiming for a target or a prop. See #2.

5. See #4

6. Haven't thought about that too much, but I'm sure there is a way to handle it.

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Just flagging up some potential issues that spring to mind, there is always a way round them if the code can be put in place.

I don't think that would work as a close range thing only though, you would have to take into account its effects at longer range as well.

Remember that you don't roll to hit props or enemies after rolling a miss, you roll against their stopping chance which can be 100%.

It would be impossible to miss any enemy who was in the way after your shot passed through the initial target so the chances of some of my examples are not as small as you suggest.

Note that I wasn't talking about enemies using the object as cover, just those standing behind them.

Cover saves work in a different way to stopping chance.

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I bumped this up because I agree ... The devs need to increase our sight range and mod the weapons to fit the increase which means ranges below 15 tiles are very deadly combat ranges. If we get that close to an alien we should be proud of ourselves and frag it or stun it.

It's been said before ... The precision rifle is nothing more that an assault rifle with a scope ... The only difference is that a scoped rifle can "thread the needle" to a target, meaning any intervening prop is negated for chances of hitting.

Then we get to the point about everyone is going to field scoped rifles ... Indeed, it's natural that the player wants to field the best weapons to win a firefight ... Weapons such as the precision rifle, LMG and the rocket launcher should begin the game with it limited to one or two each of that weapon. If the player wants more then order more.

Right now, I don't see a difference in a base assault mission and a desert mission except perhaps with more props to hide behind in the base mission. Look at what we carry ... frags and explosive. We'd all carry more rounds of weapon ammo in a desert mission if combat range was over 30 tiles than in a base mission.

Anyway, bump the combat range over 30, adjust weapon accuracy to meet the new range and perhaps the issue would be over ... But the devs insist on combat range being 10-15 tiles and they are spending a lot of time balancing that to no avail (IMO). For once I'd like to see a test build with Stellar's change along with increased combat range ... Heck, it's a test right, the whole purpose of it is to solve a problem ... We can't solve the problem if players can't experience the change.

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All of the values you mention with the exception of the accuracy falloff can easily be adjusted by the player who wants to experience it.

Once the addition of accuracy falloff as an adjustable number is added (hopefully per individual weapon not global) that can also be adjusted.

What would you set sight range to with that kind of weapon range?

I disagree about limiting the number of heavy weapons available as a balance to them being the best choice though.

I would prefer to balance them so that they are not always the best option in every situation.

Then the player has to decide if taking more than a couple is worthwhile rather than being frustrated that they cannot because the game doesn't allow it.

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It's been said before ... The precision rifle is nothing more that an assault rifle with a scope ... The only difference is that a scoped rifle can "thread the needle" to a target, meaning any intervening prop is negated for chances of hitting.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. A "real" sniper rifle is definitely not an assault rifle with a scope. They usually fire much larger more powerful rounds, heavier, bolt action, and have precision made barrels and other parts, extremely high quality scopes, and hand loaded ammo. They are nothing like an assault rifle.

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I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. A "real" sniper rifle is definitely not an assault rifle with a scope. They usually fire much larger more powerful rounds, heavier, bolt action, and have precision made barrels and other parts, extremely high quality scopes, and hand loaded ammo. They are nothing like an assault rifle.

I view a semi-auto precision rifle (in-game) as inherently less accurate than a bolt action because of all the harmonics involved. Indeed, both types of precision rifles (semi/bolt) are more accurate than an assault rifle but you'll have to agree that mounting a scope on any weapon negates the chance to hit any object in between. It's just that I'm viewing the games precision rifle as nothing more than an assault rifle with an extra bonus to hit, that's all ... It should be able to thread needles. :)

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The precision rifle is neither a sniper rifle nor an assault rifle with a scope; it's a DMR, or a designated marksman rifle. Just saying. :)

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I view a semi-auto precision rifle (in-game) as inherently less accurate than a bolt action because of all the harmonics involved. Indeed, both types of precision rifles (semi/bolt) are more accurate than an assault rifle but you'll have to agree that mounting a scope on any weapon negates the chance to hit any object in between. It's just that I'm viewing the games precision rifle as nothing more than an assault rifle with an extra bonus to hit, that's all ... It should be able to thread needles. :)
I think I see what you're saying. You mean that a sniper rifle negates cover, right? Because you can aim more precisely. That's sort of true, but so does any weapon. A decent shot using standard "iron" sights can shoot through an open spot in cover too. It's just harder all other things being equal. You aren't going to aim for the cover unless you know your shot can penetrate it or you're just trying to suppress and really don't care whether or not you can hit the target. The sniper fire just has a much better chance at longer ranges. Even if the target is just totally out in the open it would still have a better chance than an AR overall. Cover affects the overall chance and opportunity to hit any target with any weapon. Even with a scope if someone is behind cover you'll have less target area to hit meaning a miss is less likely to even wound the target and less opportunities to even take a shot (if the target doesn't leave it's head or whatever exposed all the time) and time to take the shot too. They really aren't static targets. There is great deal of abstraction and simplication going on in the Xenonauts "odds" determination. Edited by StellarRat

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The precision rifle is neither a sniper rifle nor an assault rifle with a scope; it's a DMR, or a designated marksman rifle. Just saying. :)
Where did you get that info? It looks like a bona fide sniper rifle in the picture. Edited by StellarRat

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