Weapon Tiers

[captainkrunch96]

If I'm correct, I've seen for tiers of weapons on the wiki(basic, laser, plasma, and mag). does each tier specialize at something? would a laser weapon be more affective against an andron than plasma? would plasma hurt fleshy things more than laser(btw, The only aliens I've seen in-game/ heard of are sebbillian, caesan and andron, though I have heard of others existing ).

[Max_Caine]

Not yet, no. Aaron (one of the developers) would like to add character, but atm each weapon tier is a straight upgrade of the last.

[thothkins]

Fingers crossed that such variation within the tiers will happen.

[Xenomorph]

Fingers crossed that such variation within the tiers will happen.

Absolutely love it.

We would need a way to know what's on the ground before launching the transport, tho. We would cry taking ballistics that turn ceasans into a pulp and get robots instead.

[thothkins]

Leaving the loadout for a second, does knowing the main foe (or 1 for of 2) ruin the mission for people? Does it remove the element of surprise entering the map?

When the UFO crashes would seem to be the best bet. However, when does the game calculate UFO occupants? You hover the cursor over the UFO to get terrain type and at least 1 occupant. The reasoning is that this is intel from the fleeing residents of the area. An interesting twist would be to not have this intel for deserted areas of the globe, leaving you to field what you think covers most eventualities, but that's another addition.

As neither ships or mission types are race specific, knowing when the UFO is in the air seems unlikely.

Knowing at any point after the Dropship has launched is too late as there's no equipment hold on the ship.

Sgt Xenomorph: thothkins!? we are not turning the chinnok around so you can get a better weapon!

Sgt thothkins: Actually, it's because I forgot to go to the toilet before we left...

[longbrodie]

Yes! One of my favorite things about the original two X-Com games was eventually being able to identify the race on board each enemy ship and equip your soldiers appropriately. Lasers were soooo much different from plasma and even gauss rifles had great uses that beat out sonic weapons versus certain enemies in TFTD. Availability of ammunition was also a big consideration in those games, so you didn't always want to use your most powerful weapons when it was straight up overkill.

[Sathra]

Before that happens though, the crew has to be set on the geoscape, not when the mission is loading.

[thothkins]

yeah, I thought it might be which is a bit of an issue if this sort of thing were to be implemented.

[WalrusJones]

yeah, I thought it might be which is a bit of an issue if this sort of thing were to be implemented.

This is why you make certain types of weapons light enough to be carried as a secondary weapon: Laser resistant aliens? Pull out that small ballistic carbine in your pack and shoot it twice in the face.

[Gauddlike]

If it is any kind of hassle to work out which weapon to take (and there are penalties to taking the wrong one) wouldn't people be likely to just load up as many weapons as possible onto each soldier and dump whichever were less than optimal on arrival?

I can see that leading to a lot more complaints that the Chinook doesn't have a weapon hold to allow a couple of each weapon type to be stored or that the weapons are too heavy, soldiers are not strong enough and so on.

It is a nice way to balance the weapons though so some thought needs to go into it as they are incredibly boring at the moment.

[ThunderGr]

If it is any kind of hassle to work out which weapon to take (and there are penalties to taking the wrong one) wouldn't people be likely to just load up as many weapons as possible onto each soldier and dump whichever were less than optimal on arrival?

Not if weapons cost to purchase. This way, you would have to have them, first, before you do something like that.

I can see that leading to a lot more complaints that the Chinook doesn't have a weapon hold to allow a couple of each weapon type to be stored or that the weapons are too heavy, soldiers are not strong enough and so on.

Who cares? I did not see anyone complaining about X-COM. In fact, if they did think about complaining, there was noone to hear them. The point is: Here is a game. This is how things work. Find a way to win. As simple as that.

It is a nice way to balance the weapons though so some thought needs to go into it as they are incredibly boring at the moment.

Agreed.

[Gauddlike]

Owning at least a couple of each weapon would be much more desirable if some weapons were of reduced usefulness against some enemies.

It may even be essential to winning if the penalties were severe enough.

Sadly the voices that shout about how poorly built a game is can have a severe negative impact on sales since the rise of the internet.

All potential down sides need to be considered when coming up with a change.

Player opinion is one of those things.

Working out what the complaints might be early on allows them to be addressed and the mechanic to be introduced with checks and balances in place to mitigate those complaints.

As I said, it would be a nice method and getting it right is important.

[Max_Caine]

The UFO AfterX series is the poster child of "different alien weaknesses to different weapons and what happens as a consequence". In Aftershock, the weapon of choice was advanced ballistics. Why? Because they weren't awesome at killing a particular alien, but they were average to good at killing all aliens. Throw in some weapon mods and have a skilled squaddie behind the gunsights and there wasn't any reason to have any of the other weapon types because of the weapon's mono-focus. In Afterlight, how many people regularly equiped lasers or EMP weapons on everyone? Ballistics were the key to the game, especially when facing Beastmen and god-knows-what pets they brought with them! If you make different aliens vulnerable to different weapon types, then the weapon that players will gravitate to is the weapon that is the most general purpose, defeating the idea of having different weaknesses. We already see it in this game where certain weapons are preferred over their counterparts as they are better at being a GP gun than other guns.

You can do this kind of vulnerability now and see what happens. Weapons can be of one of four damage types. Alien armour has resistance to all four damage types. Sathra did it in his Little Mod.

[ThunderGr]

Owning at least a couple of each weapon would be much more desirable if some weapons were of reduced usefulness against some enemies.

It may even be essential to winning if the penalties were severe enough.

Or you could give specific roles to your squad members to cover every situation without doing so. Having general purpose weapons that are not specifically good for any particular enemy but decent for most of them and some specialized weapons to cover the difficult cases. TFTD and EU did that as well. Ever tried to kill a lobsterman using projectiles? And those damn chrysalises...They added greatly to the game, IMHO even though I had lost so many missions because of them. I learned to carry explosives, stun rods and close combat weapons as soon as I could in order to counter them and still was quite a challenge. Good times .

Sadly the voices that shout about how poorly built a game is can have a severe negative impact on sales since the rise of the internet.

All potential down sides need to be considered when coming up with a change.

Player opinion is one of those things.

Working out what the complaints might be early on allows them to be addressed and the mechanic to be introduced with checks and balances in place to mitigate those complaints.

This is why XCOM cannot be surpassed. The developers did not have to listen to those that should not play a strategy game to begin with. Nowadays the developers do so and, instead of focusing on producing an amazing game, they focus on satisfying the cries of the ignorant, ending up producing a "popular" game but nothing great for the gender. My opinion is that, if you produce a great game, the praises of those that understand the type of the game will make the game popular to the ignorant rest and will be a success. I hope my point is clear here. Nothing great was ever produced by those that listened to the advices of the crowd.

[Gauddlike]

The suggestions here on having differences between the tiers are advice from the crowd correct?

Or were you just referring to members of the crowd making other suggestions?

The important part is being able to look at the advice and use those parts that strengthen the game in the direction you want it to go while putting aside that advice that wants to drag you down a different path.

Advice is not bad, listening to the wrong advice is bad.

[Mytheos]

I think the idea is generally valid, and if implemented correctly could be of great benefit.

If it ends up being a situation of, I have every type of weapon available to me, and choose to bring one of everything because I need to match up weapon type vs enemy type to be effective...then it would be fail.

Logically and for correct feel and theme, ballistics should be like stones and sharpened sticks, primitive...but 8 on 1 and using superior tactics, yeah I can bring down Aliens.

Lasers should be a clear upgrade as their projectile should not be affected by by gravity and wind resistance, and so should be more accurate, and should do more damage than ballistics vs everything.

However their wow nice damage vs unarmored targets should start to become lackluster vs more armored opponents, they do however retain their accuracy at least. Smaller ammo and clip capacity is acceptable from a logical and game balance standpoint.

Plasma should be more accurate than ballistics but not as accurate as lasers, however they should do much more damage than both, perhaps only slightly more vs unarmored targets but should have a clear damage advantage vs armored targets.

Lasers should also have greater range than Ballistics and Plasma, but Plasma should have better range than ballistics.

You could however have a situation that due to their weight, you'd be better off giving rookies or perhaps scouts a laser weapon and use them for suppression until they can handle Plasma properly. Plasma should shine more in the hands of a seasoned vet due to their increased strength and accuracy mitigating Plasma's inherent drawbacks.

Also you could have a case of Lasers are generally better fired in a single shot where as Plasmas shine more in burst fire.

Laser are I have a better chance of accurately hitting a target behind cover, Plasma is I'm going to just fire a burst and take out your cover.

(I would like to see massive amounts of destruction to maps when everyone is using Plasma.)

In short...

Ballistics

Range - B

Accuracy - C

Damage vs unarmored - C

Damage vs Armored - D

Damage vs Heavy Armor - F

Weight - A

Damage vs Cover - F

Lasers

Range - A

Accuracy - B

Damage vs unarmored - B

Damage vs Armored - C

Damage vs Heavy Armor - D

Weight - B

Damage vs Cover - C

Plasma

Range - B

Accuracy - B

Damage vs unarmored - B

Damage vs Armored - A

Damage vs Heavy Armor - B

Weight - C

Damage vs Cover - A

Not sure on the Hyper velocity but...

Hyper velocity

Range - A

Accuracy - A

Damage vs unarmored - C

Damage vs Armored - A

Damage vs Heavy Armor - B

Weight - C

Damage vs Cover - B

Just as a general thought.

Lasers might be preferred on Snipers, Plasma on Close Range and Heavy, and on Riffles its a case of out in the open, probably still Laser, but on a Terror Mission or in a situation that has large amounts of cover, Plasma.

(Also Plasma would be better for UFO Breaches, but Lasers would be less damaging, and have a much lower chance of blowing up half the ship in the process)

And I guess in the end Hyper Velocity should be have your cake and eat it too, other than the weight issues, so Rookies might not see as much benefit.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Mytheos

[Dranak]

I'm okay with edge cases where lasers may situationally be better than plasmas... but overall they cost so much more than in most situations they should be better, otherwise there's no point in making/using them.