Ground Combat Balance Discussion v19 Experimental

[RawCode]

Just try shooting at rabbits or another fast-moving object!

lol

just tell me, why sniper halfmap away have hit ratio 60% (full aim) and pointblank shotgun with full aim also have 60% ?

maybe something wrong here?

[svidangel]

Shotgun doesn't have full aim. It isn't an option.

[RawCode]

ok, SAME aim level will result in around 60% shotgun and 45% sniper rifle, it will now run game, select few units with same accuracy and test just this.

[svidangel]

Heh, fullscreen my sniper at 30TU is 55%, I don't use shotguns but walking up with a pistol gets me about 92% at 20TUs

Hazarding a guess, you are talking Rookies here? You'll find that your accuracy goes up pretty fast with even small increases to your accuracy score. Most of my guys are rolling around 80 Acc and they are hitting far too often for my tastes, even at range.

Edited July 1, 2013 by svidangel

[Max_Caine]

If you want details on how the accuracy calculation works, check here

[ThunderGr]

Sniper rifles get a penalty for close ranges, if I am not mistaken.

[Gauddlike]

I don't believe that is the case.

I haven't found anything in the xml or the accuracy calculation Chris posted to support that anyway.

It is a heavy weapon so gets a penalty after you move which might explain why it sometimes appears to be lower accuracy up close.

[ThunderGr]

It is a heavy weapon so gets a penalty after you move which might explain why it sometimes appears to be lower accuracy up close.

Ah, I see. Yes, obviously you are right.

[Gauddlike]

If I am it is a pity, I would like the precision rifles to have a drawback up close.

[RawCode]

if sniper dont have penalty in close range - it just as good as shotgun, but no, it's 5% and hypervelocity better.

[Gauddlike]

Unless you move in which case it is also 50% less accurate.

In the current build the shotgun is more damaging with the same armour mitigation.

The shotgun has a reaction multiplier so you are more likely to get reaction fire off and less likely to receive it.

It costs less AP to fire than the sniper rifle as well so more shots per turn or more movement while retaining the chance to fire.

So all in all the precision rifle is not really 'just as good' up close as the shotgun if you look at more than just the pure damage number.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Gauddlike

[StellarRat]

Not to mention it looks like the shotguns are being used to fire slugs, not buckshot. I'm not sure buckshot from most shotguns would do much to the aliens, and the fact that all the upgraded "shotguns" are actually Carbines supports the slug theory.

That means it's just as easy to miss with the shotgun as with any other single bullet weapon. Main advantage to all the carbines is maneuvering the weapon around in close quarters, not firing cones of useless pellets.

I'm pretty sure that buckshot would hurt the aliens plenty. Each pellet of 00 buckshot is equivalent to a 9mm pistol round in velocity and size. There are 9 pellets of 00 in each 12 gauge shell. So, being hit with a full blast would be like someone emptying their Beretta 92 into an alien. The only downside I could see is that pellets are soft lead so against anything with even light armor they would be pretty ineffective. In Xenonauts I can't think of any reason to use a shotgun without buckshot loaded to take advantage of the higher hit probability. If you're going to use slugs, you'd be better off just taking an AR instead.

[ThunderGr]

I do not bring shotguns with me. Pistols have a high fire rate, are more accurate and do more accumulative damage(if you add all shots), in addition to having a free hand for use with something else and being lighter. Just saying.

[StellarRat]

I do not bring shotguns with me. Pistols have a high fire rate, are more accurate and do more accumulative damage(if you add all shots), in addition to having a free hand for use with something else and being lighter. Just saying.

The shotgun was better when it did 65 points of damage and had a realistic range of 7 tiles. I considered that pretty realistic and it was definitely a one shot killer at close range. It was too heavily nerfed in 18, IMO.

[thothkins]

As everyone will have a different feel, I felt it should have been reduced, but that yeah, it came down a little too much. No pleasing... well anyone

[StellarRat]

As everyone will have a different feel, I felt it should have been reduced, but that yeah, it came down a little too much. No pleasing... well anyone

Exactly. That brings me around to my original argument: Why bother with even having a shotgun in the game unless it has a distinct advantage/disadvantage/difference from another weapon(s)? When it had short range a excellent power it was different than the other weapons, now it's just another AR, and not a good one at that.

[svidangel]

Well, if it's meant to simulate buckshot then they should probably have the damage-range increment dropped to like 2 squares or so and the accuracy dramatically increased.

[StellarRat]

Well, if it's meant to simulate buckshot then they should probably have the damage-range increment dropped to like 2 squares or so and the accuracy dramatically increased.

Yeah, modeling the spread is a little harder, however the pattern of buckshot even at 50 yards is only two feet wide roughly, so I think 2 squares is a little extreme. You really do have to aim a shotgun and just about as carefully as a rifle in most cases. Most people think you just have to point it roughly at the target and that is totally wrong unless the shotgun has a spread bore and you are close enough that you know some of the pellets will hit the target even with high dispersion. For the most part that type of aiming isn't going to work well low density 00 buckshot and certainly won't work with slugs. The reason shotguns are so good for close combat is the hitting power, large variety of possible loads, and because missed shots won't carry as far as rifle rounds (avoiding civilian casualties).

Edited July 1, 2013 by StellarRat

[Andeerz]

Yeah. If things were totally realistic, I could see shotties being useful as a breaching tool. It would be neat to have to negotiate locked doors!

[StellarRat]

Yeah. If things were totally realistic, I could see shotties being useful as a breaching tool. It would be neat to have to negotiate locked doors!

JA2 has locked doors, etc...

[svidangel]

Not really a balance issue, but right now almost all of my troops are pistol/shield, and I've noticed it's 33 TUs to drop pistol, throw grenade, pick up pistol, and 42 TUs to just use the quick throw option. Convenience at the cost of TUs still.

[Solarius Scorch]

Each pellet of 00 buckshot is equivalent to a 9mm pistol round in velocity and size.

Umm, not at all. If it was so, a shotgun would be a short-range minigun. Buckshot indeed has similar size as a 9 mm pistol bullet, but the bullet is almost twice as fast (300 - 350 m/s vs. 200 m/s), not to mention other issues like shape. Just saying.

Anyway, shotguns are useless in the current edition. I'm personally modding all weapons anyway so I kinda forgot about it, but... yeah.

Not really a balance issue, but right now almost all of my troops are pistol/shield, and I've noticed it's 33 TUs to drop pistol, throw grenade, pick up pistol, and 42 TUs to just use the quick throw option. Convenience at the cost of TUs still.

Excellent observation. This is wrong indeed... Perhaps the TU cost for quick throwing grenades should be dynamic? Calculated based on what you have in hands?

[StellarRat]

Umm, not at all. If it was so, a shotgun would be a short-range minigun. Buckshot indeed has similar size as a 9 mm pistol bullet, but the bullet is almost twice as fast (300 - 350 m/s vs. 200 m/s), not to mention other issues like shape. Just saying.

I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but the muzzle velocity of a 12 ga is nearly the same as a 9mm pistol. Here are the Wiki pages and one that addresses muzzle velocity. Note: A shotgun slug exceeds the muzzle velocity of any 9mm round while 00 buckshot falls in the mid-range, so in essence, the shotgun is in fact a mini-gun as you stated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_gauge_shotgun

http://www.chacha.com/question/what-is-the-muzzle-velocity-of-a-12-gauge-shotgun-00-buckshot

[Solarius Scorch]

I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but the muzzle velocity of a 12 ga is nearly the same as a 9mm pistol. Here are the Wiki pages and one that addresses muzzle velocity. Note: A shotgun slug exceeds the muzzle velocity of any 9mm round while 00 buckshot falls in the mid-range, so in essence, the shotgun is in fact a mini-gun as you stated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_gauge_shotgun

http://www.chacha.com/question/what-is-the-muzzle-velocity-of-a-12-gauge-shotgun-00-buckshot

Yes, muzzle velocity, but I was thinking about average impact velocity (shotgun pellets get slow quickly). Anyway, while my numbers may have been wrong (I got them from somewhere), getting hit with shotgun pellets cannot possibly be equivalent to receiving 50 pistol bullets to the chest.

[Max_Smirnov]

About the shotgun issue, I'd like to kindly point out that according to Xenopedia, all aliens are wearing highly effective light ballistic armor. So using buckshot would be highly ineffective, and as for slugs, well, the current damage caused by shotguns seems to work quite well, maybe even favouring shotguns a little.