Combat.shield

[ThunderGr]

Oh, I don't know. They can carry a pistol and several grenades, which is basically everything they need (long arms wouldn't make sense anyway). Even my rookies have no problem with carrying this much with no penalties, especially since I don't use armour at all (except buzzards).

My assault rookies carrying a shield and a pistol have their TUs almost halved. So, not exactly the fastest chickens in the barn, not to mention the limited TUs for shot and move. You need to choose which to do, each turn.

[Mantaray]

almost halved?! surely you're exaggerating. at most you might loose 5/10 TU's if they're particularly weak.

[Ol' Stinky]

almost halved?! surely you're exaggerating. at most you might loose 5/10 TU's if they're particularly weak.

A strength 60 guy - the highest you're going to get from a newbie - can carry a shield, a pistol and two grenades without taking a TU hit. If you're unlucky and get a bunch of sub-strength 55 guys to start with then your shield guys are gonna struggle. Still, two grenades and a pistol is hardly a killing machine. I think it's fairly well balanced as it is, and even if shields do need a nerf of some kind, a vision penalty isn't it.

[smoitessier]

I'm divided about the shield not enduring a visibility hit. On one hand it's great for your scouts, on the other it's more realistic that they can't see very well. I guess it's moddable?

[thothkins]

being reduced to using a pistol and having to walk round any obstacle are decent balances. A sight reduction too? Not sure it's needed.

Taking a landing ship as an example assault. Across all of the fields, the pistolier is pretty weak. For months in game, they can only carry the shield and the pistol (I went with High Res for assault troops with slightly less TUs). They come into their own in close combat or in accessing the ship.

[Ol' Stinky]

I'm divided about the shield not enduring a visibility hit. On one hand it's great for your scouts, on the other it's more realistic that they can't see very well. I guess it's moddable?

Realism takes a firm back seat to gameplay. Plumbers who crawl down pipes generally don't find a wonderful alternate world, and they certainly don't win the heart of a princess, but that never stopped me enjoying Super Mario.

[thothkins]

Plumbers who crawl down pipes ...certainly don't win the heart of a princess

Unless it's one of those serial killer movies where the heart of the princess has been dropped down there, of course.

[Sathra]

I armour all my shield guys. Since they generally act as mobile cover for the assault troops that follow them around, the low TU's aren't an issue. I just have them slowly stumble around the map till they get to the UFO, then they actually do stuff.

When they get experienced though, they become damn effective.

[Solarius Scorch]

How's the casualty rate with only having buzzards?

It's better than when I'm using Wolves and Jackals, since the visibility limitation sucks.

[ChaseBears]

Realism takes a firm back seat to gameplay

How is it good gameplay to have minmaxed shield-scouts?

You don't need realism, but you do need authenticity, and guys wandering across fields with combat shields up makes my mind's eye wince. What is this - Testudo formation?

[Ol' Stinky]

I see it as the alternative to vehicle scouts. If the hunter's not good enough to compete, then that means the hunter's probably in need of help (which it got some of in the form of a health boost, iirc, and it already has an advantage in sight range). People are always going to min-max, the answer's not to take an option out altogether. Before shields, I always took a vehicle because of the extra sight range. If shields get changed so that they're bad for scouting, I'll probably go back to that and not take a shield guy along at all.

I won't lie, I did feel it a little odd at first to have modern day legionaries charging out of the chinook. Then again, I thought they were odd to have indoors as well. I'm a guy who knows absolutely nothing about real-life modern warfare, but running up to an alien with a sheet of metal held in front, and then slam dunking a grenade down their throat doesn't seem to me how it would go down. But shields are in there, they serve a purpose, and they're satisfying to use. I don't want them to become like C4 - an item that in theory has a use, but in practice never leaves the base's inventory.

[the.trav]

I'm hoping C4 gets a larger use in alien base missions

[Sathra]

I find my shield squad hilarious. I once even had half the team with shields, and half with a mix of rifles and shotguns during the start of the game. They roamed the map, converging whenever an alien was sighted. They would then group up to present a solid wall of shields and advance gradually towards the alien firing constantly.

It was the most absurdly effective build I've ever done.

[Mytheos]

I havent used the combat shields so maybe I have less bias to offset the lack of experience.

Using a pattern of thought going from logic, to game mechanics to feel (Balance)...

Logically a combat shield really shouldnt be effective vs a plasma weapon, they should get virtually shredded by them.

Riot Shields are made out of poly-carbonate I think and generally offer ballistic protection against small arms fire only.

And I put forth even if made with kevlar they would still get torn through (as the game says about kevlar vest usage, they dont use it because it's pointless)...So special shields made of steel and ceramics?

What happens when they get hit by Plasma Pistols, vs Riffles, vs Heavy Plasma?

I would think a Pistol would burn through them but they would absorb some punch and therefore a lot of damage. ( I envision the projectile hitting and then dispersing across the shield more but still penetrating. )

I would think a Riffle would easily burn through them and due to a tighter projectile and greater penetration would leave a smaller hole and do less damage to the shield but more damage to the user.

Heavy Plasma should do maybe more damage to the shield than a Riffle, but less than a pistol. But should do the most to the soldier. (High penetration, larger projectile)

So continuing to a Game Mechanic perspective...

Just a basic concept with easy numbers, you have Aliens with Pistols, Riffles and Heavy Plasmas and say a shot from each of them did 100 damage (Obviously with damage Heavy > Riffle > Pistol). And lets assume shields have say 100 HP and so do soldiers just to keep things easy.

Against Pistol - Shields Absorb 75% of the damage but also take the damage they absorb. So for a 100 damage hit, the Soldier takes 25 damage, and the shield takes 75. (Result is Shield at 25 HP, Soldier at 75 HP)

-Second hit = Shield, (25HP - 75HP = 0), Shield destroyed. Soldier, (75HP - 25HP = 50HP), Soldier at half life.

Against Riffles - Shields Absorb 50% of the damage and take 50% of the damage so for a 100 damage hit, the Shield and Soldier are both left with 50 HP

-Second hit = Shield, (50HP - 50HP = 0), Shield destroyed. Soldier, (50HP - 50HP = 0), Soldier dead.

Against Heavy Plasma - Shields absorb 25% of the damage and take 25% of the damage. (Bare with me) So the Shield is left with 75 HP and the Soldier has 25 HP.

-Second hit = Shield, (75HP - 25HP = 50), Shield Still usable (By someone else). Soldier, (75HP - 25HP = 50HP), Soldier dead.

You would want to take that from a basic concept to a finalized mechanic so the numbers would be different and more complex of course.

But as for feel and balance...

Restrictions - Cannot use two handed weapons, cannot be placed in backpack.

They would have good usage as a Scout with Pistol/Grenades as they are more survivable and can flush Aliens and then suppress with pistol or throw smoke grenades so your troops can more safely advance.

They would aid in extending cover, as they could be placed on either side of a single tile of cover to allow larger groups to hide behind.

They would be useful as scouts in being the first one around a blind corner as they are more likely to survive reaction fire from Aliens.

They would be great for breaching UFOs as they could absorb reaction fire more successfully and then move out to allow your other soldiers to fire in safety, reducing casualties during breaches. (Assume breaches become more than shooting fish in a barrel and reaction shots become more of a concern on harder difficulties)

They could work in combo with Shotgun Soldiers to allow them to more safely close the gap. (Assume shotguns get a damage tweek and improved accuracy) Shotguns running into range = 50% chance I kill you, 50% you kill me, but with a shield soldier in front their survival is now in your favor.

*They should NOT be overly-effective shield walls however*

They would seem like a tool similar to a smoke grenade in that they are good but get used up.

Vs Pistol they could be used in shield wall fashion once or twice but the shields would be getting damaged/destroyed quick, but you would have higher survivability while they lasted

Vs Riffle they would be less effective at preventing deaths but if someone died the shields could be reused.

Vs Heavy they would be lackluster and if you were not willing to take losses, dont do this.

When used in conjunction with armor of course this can change in your favor some.

I think OP shields or shield walls in general are a bad idea, the Aliens need to be scary, and marching slowly toward them in the open behind a shield wall makes them less scary more manageable. ( The thought needs to be "Oh crap, find a brick wall!" not, "It's cool just march towards them with my shield wall."

Yes you could research better shields but they would cost you a lot of resources (Alloys and maybe advanced ones some Alienium) and they tend to get destroyed.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Mytheos

[Mytheos]

And as a side note, to aid in identifying what weapon an Alien is using, Pistol, Riffle, Heavy and so forth...

Maybe change the color of the plasma projectiles? Red - yellow -Blue/white - to match hotter fires burn different colors. ( Suns = Plasma, White is hotter than Yellow is hotter than Red)

[thothkins]

I had thought that there was still some chance for a shot to get past the shield, meaning it wasn't reliable against shots from certain angles, or against multiple foes. Likewise, I thought it would be less useful against higher grade weapons (or at least not against all of them) and that perhaps an enhanced version may be required.

Ah well, when the aliens get grenades and start hunting in packs, then that should be that for shield walls.

[Ol' Stinky]

I think there is a chance for shots to get through? It's just that it doesn't show up in the .xmls. Also, hypervelocity seems to completely bypass shields, which gave me a nasty shock when I gave hypervelocity weapons to aliens from the very start of the game. So once you get alien plasma sniper rifles on the field, shields are no longer as effective, and an unarmoured shieldman can be one-shot.

As far as potential nerfs to the shield goes, I'd rather not have a system where pistols, rifles and then the higher tier weapons have different levels of penetration against shields. It's kinda unwieldy when I'm on the battlefield and I have to look at what weapon the enemy's using and then consult a chart to see how well my shield guy's going to fare. Also, increasing damage levels already simulates it: a shield's going to block more plasma pistol hits than plasma rifle hits, and so on.

If the shield has to be toned down, I guess I'd go with one of the following:

1) The obvious one: alter the hp levels and maybe introduce more tiers of shields as time goes on if needed.

2) Make it a manufacturable item with a cost, but requiring no extra resources such as alloys. At the moment, if you lose a hunter you lose what, £60,000? If you lose two shieldmen, you lose £20,000 from the soldiers, assuming you don't give them armour.

3) Do something about shield grenadiers, either by lowering XP gains to prevent really strong shieldmen, a shield-specific penalty to people throwing grenades (+10TUs, making it cost 52TUs to throw a grenade with a shield up?), or a nerf to grenades (which might be coming anyway). Grenade upgrades being entirely free exacerbates the shield-grenade synergy.

4) The suggestion I made earlier, where instead of absorbing 100% of the damage, shields absorb 75% instead, or whatever percentage value works. Shieldmen still become tougher than regular soldiers, but will have to heal up between missions if they take fire.

Just no vision impairment. Please?

Edited June 28, 2013 by Ol' Stinky
Left out the "sniper" in "alien plasma sniper rifles".

[TrashMan]

A shield made out of special ceramics (like the one used on the space shuttle) would be VERY heat resistant - but heavy and brittle against ballistics.

You could possibly try aerogel, as it is far lighter ann has extreeme heat resistance properties, but it's might be a bit too high-tech.

You could try to create a universal shield by sandwitching various layers of different materials, but such a shield most likely wouldn't be as effective.

Now the thing is that a shiled is already requires a big sacrifice - weight and firepower. Balancing it must be done carefully, lest it is rendered pointless.

[Solarius Scorch]

Well, I'd be happy to see the shield introduced after Alien Alloys. Before that, it's not that needed (because your men are rookies anyway and can be replaced easily) and Alien Alloys would give us a good explanation on why the shields are in use now and what tech they depend on.

Or an alternative, and perhaps better, idea would be that they could be available by the same research that gives you Jackal armours. After all, Jackal is all about analysing plasma weaponry and how to stop it with materials known on Earth, right? And the shield does exactly that.

[Mytheos]

I think there is a chance for shots to get through? It's just that it doesn't show up in the .xmls. Also' date=' hypervelocity seems to completely bypass shields, which gave me a nasty shock when I gave hypervelocity weapons to aliens from the very start of the game. So once you get alien plasma rifles on the field, shields are no longer as effective, and an unarmoured shieldman can be one-shot.

As far as potential nerfs to the shield goes, I'd rather not have a system where pistols, rifles and then the higher tier weapons have different levels of penetration against shields. It's kinda unwieldy when I'm on the battlefield and I have to look at what weapon the enemy's using and then consult a chart to see how well my shield guy's going to fare. Also, increasing damage levels already simulates it: a shield's going to block more plasma pistol hits than plasma rifle hits, and so on.

If the shield has to be toned down, I guess I'd go with one of the following:

1) The obvious one: alter the hp levels and maybe introduce more tiers of shields as time goes on if needed.

2) Make it a manufacturable item with a cost, but requiring no extra resources such as alloys. At the moment, if you lose a hunter you lose what, £60,000? If you lose two shieldmen, you lose £20,000 from the soldiers, assuming you don't give them armour.

3) Do something about shield grenadiers, either by lowering XP gains to prevent really strong shieldmen, a shield-specific penalty to people throwing grenades (+10TUs, making it cost 52TUs to throw a grenade with a shield up?), or a nerf to grenades (which might be coming anyway). Grenade upgrades being entirely free exacerbates the shield-grenade synergy.

4) The suggestion I made earlier, where instead of absorbing 100% of the damage, shields absorb 75% instead, or whatever percentage value works. Shieldmen still become tougher than regular soldiers, but will have to heal up between missions if they take fire.

Just no vision impairment. Please?[/quote']

I agree on no vision impairment, and I am not suggesting something that requires a chart.

Its a feel thing in the end, but all you as a player would take away is, early game I can do a shield wall vs pistols ok, its somewhat effective. The shields get chewed up but people survive, they might buy you a round or two before deaths/destroyed shields happen.

However their use as a shield wall becomes very lackluster vs riffles and a really bad idea vs Heavy.

At that point of the game, they still make better scouts than unshielded and help extend cover so more of your guys can hide behind some boxes.

Again as far as knowing which they are using, you can change the color of the plasma projectiles and the color of the glowing lights on their weapons.

But again as far as feel and balance you think, yeah they can take a couple shots vs pistols (before being destroyed) and my soldier probably walks away injured.

Vs Riffles, they take a shot maybe two and my soldier walks away wounded.

Vs Heavy, they take only 1 shot and the soldier walks away severely wounded.

Idea is more survivable scouts, and reaction fire absorbers for breaches, and extending cover, to set up a better gun line for a turn or two.

But it should feel like you are carrying around a wooden crate essentially. Its something, and can save lives over the course of several missions, but you still wouldnt bunker down with 3 or 4 of them and start a shootout, and would never form a shield wall with long range weapons behind them and march towards the enemy...unless you consider them fodder.

[GizmoGomez]

One suggestion: Can we have better shields after we get alloy manipulation abilities? I know we have combat shields (duh) and there was assault shields somewhere (what are those, anyway? I've never gotten them, I don't know how they're different).

My thinking is that armor and shields could be tied together, because it makes sense. I mean, as we improve armor, shields would be easy to make, considering all the joints and things that make good armor, shields are increasingly simple.

The better shields would simply have more HP, and be heavier, probably (with the exception of the Scout Shield; see below)

No research (blue jumpsuit "armor") - Combat Shield: Heavy, not so great at protecting, but offers some protection.

Jackal Armor Research - Assault Shield: made with ceramics, heavier than the combat shield but has more HP.

Wolf Armor Research - Alloy Shield: Made with Alien Alloys, slightly heavier than the assault shield but has decently more HP than assault.

Buzzard Armor Research - Scout Shield: Made with lighter alloys, designed for scouting specifically, so it has less HP than the Wolf, about the same as the assault, but weighs about the same as the regular combat shield (or maybe even less?) This would be a great shield for newbies and scouts to use, since it weighs fairly little comparatively, and offers some decent protection against enemy weapons. (Alternately, it could weigh less than the combat shield, but have slightly more HP than the combat shield).

Later armors would also get their own shields as well (I can only think of Predator Armor, are there more than that?)

Predator could get a super heavy alloy shield that lets you absorb a ton of damage. Since it's powered armor, you could (theoretically) even use a two handed weapon one handed with the shield, but that might be too overpowered. I think it'd be awesome, though. Think Space Marines:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/AlternativeFW/xlarge/boardex4.jpg

Does that sound appealing?

[ChaseBears]

Just no vision impairment. Please?

The only reason to take vision impairment off the table is shield scouts and shield scouts are dumb/gamey as a mechanic. You don't need much vision to use a shield for UFO breaching, which IMO is their intended role.

Edited June 28, 2013 by ChaseBears

[thothkins]

Considering that the Xenonaut is using it to avoid fire, I'd not argue too much against a vision penalty.

But, since I thought that nto every shot is blocked, then there's still the AI to look at when balanced, plus the weight of the thing. If stun grenades are pegged back it would also lower their effectiveness. So perhaps a bit of general game balance is needed before affecting vision?

However, I 'm wary of seeing videos of testudos after the game launch. It would seem pretty silly.

[Ol' Stinky]

The only reason to take vision impairment off the table is shield scouts and shield scouts are dumb/gamey as a mechanic. You don't need much vision to use a shield for UFO breaching, which IMO is their intended role.

But it's an impractical role. You're not going to take a shieldman and then have him sling his shield until he gets to the UFO. The shield's too heavy and takes up too much inventory space for that, and clearing the outside of the UFO is the majority of the map. It's not like shotguns, where you can have your snipers easily keep one in the backpack and then dump their sniper rifles to go inside (when shotguns are worth using over grenades, of course). Also, it means there's only one option for scouting, and that's to take a hunter.

After a few missions I didn't even really think about shield scouts being silly as a concept, the same way I accepted that I can't move out of this set area of the map, or that the map's covered in an opaque fog of war at the start of the level, or I can only hold eight guys in a chinook when there's clearly enough space for more. I shrugged all that off at some point because it works: all of that adds to the gameplay, and so do shields.

I doubt we're going to get new items that require new coding and assets at this point, so we're not going to get something like binoculars/motion detector/whatever that increases a unit's vision range by x tiles for one turn, but costs 50 TUs. It's shields versus vehicles from here on in.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Ol' Stinky

[ChaseBears]

well imo armor vision reduction is way overdone.

we wouldn't 'need' shield scouts if armored mens could see.

though tbh you can scout fine without shields, its just riskier.

I've no doubt people could get used to it, it just doesn't pass the 'explain this to someone who hasn't played' smell test. Sort of like pistol-commandos. "You don't armor guys... and give them them pistols... so they can scout? in the cold war era?"

I've gotten more than one eyebrow about that.

Edited June 29, 2013 by ChaseBears