Research suggestion: Nightvision goggles

[kefeinzel]

This would be an early game researchable and possibly manufactured item that would be carried on the soldier to mitigate the drastically reduced night sight range.

This would allow me to not get horribly demolished as badly on every single night map ever.

Discuss!

[GizmoGomez]

That's what flares are for. I'd personally rather there be a new rocket-flare added for rocket-launchers.

Making the night missions, in essence, day missions, would kind of break the balance in my opinion.

Also, in the new v19 Experimental build, the night missions aren't as bad, since the tiles don't all turn black after you can't see them anymore. Check the Development Updates sub-forum for the change list, it's listed there.

[JanPanbran]

This would be an early game researchable and possibly manufactured item that would be carried on the soldier to mitigate the drastically reduced night sight range.

This would allow me to not get horribly demolished as badly on every single night map ever.

Discuss!

it would be so cooool!

maybe capturing a robot alien body gives you the chance to research it !

[Sathra]

That's what flares are for. I'd personally rather there be a new rocket-flare added for rocket-launchers.

Making the night missions, in essence, day missions, would kind of break the balance in my opinion.

Go into weapons_gc.xml, go to the rocket section and increase fire chance to 30 or 40. Lots of fire and light now!

[Solarius Scorch]

Completely mitigating the darkness effect would make the day cycle moot. What could be done though is enabling the following effects when nightvision goggles are in place:

1) Penalizing sight range even further. Night goggles penalty stuck with the helmet penalty.

2) Highlighting silhouettes of life forms, also far beyond the normal sight range (though no further than daylight range).

This is a very raw idea that is 2 minutes old at most , but I can't see any other way to go. The main problem would be preventing use of nightvision equipment with flares, which are far too bright and would blind the soldier. I don't know how to implement this, apart from giving ALL soldiers on the team either flares or nightvision goggles, as decided by the player.

[Andeerz]

It's interesting to see what the state of the technology was at the time of the game! The kind of goggles used at the time were mainly used for aviation purposes, though I don't know much about how they fared in actual use by infantry.

Check this out!

http://www.usaarl.army.mil/TechReports/98-28.PDF

FOV would be around 60 degrees, resolution would suck, and there would be a humongous problem anytime someone shined something bright. As soon as a fire, flare, streetlight, or any sort of sustained brightness came into view (at least somewhat close), the night vision goggles would likely become completely useless. So I'd expect that unless it was some advanced alien night vision technology, night vision goggles probably wouldn't be of much help (if not an impairment) to the Xenonauts on the ground in a well-lit setting. Then again, this is coming from someone who has never ever used them in real life.

Actually... maybe they would actually be useful. I mean, they were used in ground combat operations in Vietnam... And if the night missions actually were darker (as in, the soldiers didn't have a radius of light emitting from them), and things could hide under the cover of darkness more realistically, then the night vision goggles might actually have some use. Night vision scopes on guns, though, for sure would not at all be useful for close range stuff like what this game has.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Andeerz

[GizmoGomez]

I'm just thinking that the first time someone fired an energy weapon, or saw a streetlamp, or some other light source, they'd become useless and have to be readjusted, either manually or just through waiting for them to adjust.

[Andeerz]

Anyone with actual experience using these things? :3 From what I read, it seems to me that they are useful on the ground when sneaking around and getting awareness of the surroundings before any action or for someone acting in conjunction with someone else without them in order to act as spotters or something. During a firefight, I do not know if they would still be used, at least not by everyone.

[mrChips]

I've been thinking the game needs something along these lines. The day/night cycle should have meaning and it's a good thing that the night missions are harder, scarier and more atmospheric. That said, in the game I am a military commander with legions of scientists and engineers at my disposal who can build a supersonic fighter jet out of bits of scrap metal in a matter of days. I should have some ability to address the obvious tactical advantage the aliens have in being able to see in the dark.

I would propose several tiers of items of increasing effectiveness unlocked through researching techs in the early, mid and late game.

Tier 1:

Flare gun - fires a single flare for 20/30/40 TU or a burst of three for 40TU, out slightly further than they can be thrown. 3x2 size one-handed weapon, must be reloaded, ammo clips are size one and hold 3 flares. Abject accuracy. Maybe a direct hit to an alien sets them on fire for lulz.

Hunter armoured cars receive a flare gun with, say, 12 flares when the tech has been researched (they have what look like smoke canister launchers on the model already, maybe these could be removed and added back when you get the tech).

Tier 2:

Infrared scanner - One handed item, 2x2 size. When equipped, marks tiles as containing an alien or neutral unit (but doesn't show their model or give you other information that can be used to identify their type or facing) out to a distance halfway between the current nighttime and daytime view distances, within the soldiers usual FOV angle accounting for armour. Still subject to line-of-sight, and does not reveal terrain. Some late-game aliens may not be visible in infrared. Advanced xenonaut vehicles get infrared scanners when the tech is researched.

Tier 3:

Nightvision scope - gives the soldier daytime view distance but restricts their FOV to be slightly narrower than they get from Jackal armour. Not sure how this should be equipped - perhaps everyone has it and consumes a battery from their inventory to activate it for 2-3 turns, perhaps it applies only to sniper-type weapons, or perhaps soldiers could get a head slot so we have to trade off vs additional protection from a helmet. As someone suggested above, it doesn't play nicely with flares and and soldiers with a nightvision scope get an aim penalty against targets illuminated by a flare or a fire.

[Xenomorph]

From other threads posts and stuff, i doubt we'll get any of these as standard features for vanilla.

But in my game, after researching Alien Electronics, my scientists managed to fit the Wolf armor with a built-in NV/thermal, and mitigate the extreme risk of night time missions. Now my boys can see just as well as Caesans. Take that you ^&$^%#*^__+(_ alien scum!

The device is still a bit buggy (in the lore part of it

), but what isn't

Just have to change a couple values here and there.

[Wobbles]

Just give the night vision the same limitations the real stuff had -- heavy weight, and limited battery life. Like, just a few turns of operation, poor reliability -- get hit, they break.

You could make us carry big heavy spare batteries around. Real militaries have to manage this additional weight, even today. Back in the 80's, you'd be carting around glorified motorcycle batteries to run your electronics.

This would give the night missions more tactical depth -- let us respond to the challenge in a meaningful way, rather than having an across the board reduction in effectiveness. Give us pros and cons to going out at night; with those pros and cons dictated by technology choices. Have "night combat" be something we could specialize in by dedicating resources to the right paths of research.

Also... what about flashlights? Turn them on, you see a few tiles further -- and the aliens see you across the map. Light discipline, anyone?

[thothkins]

Should the aliens get any perks now that the humans can see in the dark?

Alien night vision for those that can't already see just as clearly? A flash grenade would even things up. 1 round burst, blinding Xenonauts with night vision for Y rounds. Oooooh, feature creep

[Andeerz]

The limited battery life of stuff IRL is substantial. They can last on the order of hours (for the PVS-4 or 5, I think it's like 10 hours!). Also, the batteries even in the generation 2 stuff that they would be using would be small, like AA battery small, and would fit within the unit.

I think the disadvantage to this stuff in game terms ought to be limited FOV (like 60 or even 40 degrees), and an accuracy penalty for things beyond unaided night sight range, and an accuracy penalty in general with it engaged (if we are talking about the biocular night vision device on the helmet). Aiming down the iron sights with big ol' binocular things on your head would be very tough. That, and also an accuracy penalty for anything with light near it.

For a night vision scope mounted on a weapon, it should only extend visual range when aiming (crouched?), and with that have a very narrow (40 degrees, tops) FOV. The general aiming penalty shouldn't apply, but the other penalties should.

[Goetikmagus]

Anyone with actual experience using these things? :3 From what I read, it seems to me that they are useful on the ground when sneaking around and getting awareness of the surroundings before any action or for someone acting in conjunction with someone else without them in order to act as spotters or something. During a firefight, I do not know if they would still be used, at least not by everyone.

Yes. I've got lots of experience with NODs. Sometimes, they're a help, sometimes not. Assuming the caviat that, like ammunition and standard weapons, are limitless - I'll also assume that battery life is likewise unlimited. Let me explain:

Nightvision, when worn, gives an enhanced lighting experience, but it's 2-D and monochrome. It gives you better night sight, to be sure, but it also turns your vision completely flat - making it difficult to judge distances. It also shows everything in a single color (usually green), making it easy for a stealthy opponent to camouflage themselves if they're not moving. What's more, short, brilliant flashes of light, like flares, renders them useless for a little while.

If I were a Developer, NODs would extend night vision range, but it would decrease probability to-hit at any kind of range. It would multiply terrain obstacle modifiers, including elevation changes. Laser/Plasma weapons would be easier to identify at range.

Realistically, NODs are useful when operating in stealth conditions against other human beings. Against aliens with potentially better natural or engineered night-sight in a situation which is tactically combative - rather than a scouting situation, they'd be practically useless. Natural human vision will adapt to the darkness better than night-sights will help.

Now... thermals? That's a different ballgame. Overlap thermals with night-vision and movement-sensitivity, and you'd have something that's really worth having.

I could name half a dozen other factors, but in the interests of the game, I've chosen to only recall the most important ones.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Goetikmagus

[Goetikmagus]

Conversely, if stealth were added to the game (on both sides, of course), then NODs would be an interesting addition.

[Andeerz]

Thermals would be awesome...

[Riotmaker]

There really should be night-vision in some form, even if its simply stating its limits and not having it for soldiers. The ideas on balancing it here would make them a valid but not overly powerful option should they be added.

However one thing I was a little surprised about is that the Hunter Vehicle has no night-vision systems, it would make a logical and expected upgrade seeing as accuracy is not its point anyway.

[Goetikmagus]

I'm thinking: A bonus to night-vision range, and a penalty to accuracy would be the best solution - at least for basic NODs. It would encourage a player to use them sometimes, but not universally. Most likely, a fast assault soldier with a shotgun would serve as a scout for the rest of the group - using the night optics to find and identify targets for the rest of the team. Thermals (provided the alien in question actually has body heat) would be slightly better.

[Andeerz]

Yeah! I like that idea. That with a FOV penalty as well (or at least make it easily changed in the config file).

[thothkins]

Thermals would be awesome...

...perfect for those cold arctic missions.

[Sathra]

Classic Thothkins.

[GizmoGomez]

Ow, my head. (hahahaha)

[Wrath_IX]

I have read through the posts that people have put up regarding night vision and it appears that a few people are operating under some gross misconceptions regarding the time frame and evolution of passive night vision technology. so here are a few facts to help every one get on the same page.

1) night vision technology was first invented and created in 1945! (That's right folks it first showed up in WWII!)

2) By the 1960's (Vietnam) Starlight/Lowlight devices were already actively deployed in light weight self contained scopes either used like a monocular (kind of like the old spyglass from victorian age sailing) or as a rifle scope (though these were fairly oversized by todays standards)

3) by 1977 night vision technology was in its 3rd generation ie. self-contained, reasonable weight and size for practical military use.

and since we are currently only in the 4th generation of nightvision technology this should already be a technology fully available to an organization such as Xenonauts.

So here is my suggestions when it comes to nightvision in the game.

Should already be a usable feature in the game from the start. In terms of game mechanics I would suggest that it work something like this. Turn it on: sight range is modified so that your team has shadowy view out to their normal/Daytime sight range. otherwise their clearly visible range remains unchanged. However while night vision is on the Xenonauts take a 10% penalty on accuracy since 3rd gen goggles and weapons sights did not get along very much.

Also add a research tech of Infrared Night vision. Once researched this would reduce the accuracy penalty to 5% and simply add a white outline to any "Living Creatures" within sight range (civilian, local forces, aliens, but not The robots!) and it should be difficult to accurately identify them.

That arrangement would make it a worthwhile research investment from the players standpoint yet still make night battles a fun/Challenging/terrifying experience and not break any of the balance of the game.

and for those of you who wish to verify the validity of the facts I stated; here is the source of the information

http://www.nvl.army.mil/history.html (Night Vision and Electronic Sensors Directorate)

[TrashMan]

Nightvision goggles should increase view distance at night...given that it's reduced at night, it would basicly remove the night penalty.

No big deal.

Modern night vision goggles have filters so you can prevent blinding from bright sources.

[GizmoGomez]

However, once you put on the night vision goggles, and the sight range penalty is compensated for, the night missions basically become day missions, with a few slight differences. This defeats the purpose of night missions; a much darker, intense, tension-filled experience. Perhaps if the night vision goggles were researched from some kind of alien tech, and didn't completely compensate for the sight range penalty, then it wouldn't ruin the difference between night and day missions by blurring the line between them too much.