Peek around corner

[Sathra]

I can see the allure of it, I'm just thinking of ways to make it interesting. Assuming it could be made to work, you could use EU2012 method where being at a corner is only mostly protective, but you can see around corners (and/or shoot). This would have odd results where being one square from a corner is safe, and taking at step, getting sight to shoot/squadsight (assuming LOS updates in realtime here) then stepping back. I think reaction fire is based on current TU at the step + reflexes stat so this would be very safe.

Having it an action that does a LOS 'pulse' would just be boring in my mind. And there needs to be a downside besides the TU cost Always triggers reaction fire? Pretty harsh, so maybe it just forces a check. Risky, but could be worth it, as if they miss you drain a reaction shot to be able to move up.

I dunno, I like it how it is. Every corner is scary, and takes some thought to deal with (I like to shoot through the walls). Might be realistically silly, but I enjoy it. Also helps that I easily memorise spawn points after a couple missions on a map .

[Gauddlike]

About taking risks to reap rewards, you can use that when talking about money investments and whatnot, but NOT in military operations that involve the loss of life.

But this is not a military operation it is a game and as such needs to be balanced.

As I have said previously, I am not against the feature I just think that before requesting a feature be added (especially against the wishes of the developer) it should be apparent what it will bring to the game and how it will be able to be balanced.

So far that is not the case to my mind.

You can allude to as many games as you want but the mechanics that make the feature unbalanced are present in this game, a game where peering around corners was not designed in and would be a tagged on feature that needs to somehow be balanced with the existing set of features.

So far the best option someone has put forward (sorry can't remember who) would be to allow strafing sideways while facing forward.

It is not exactly a realistic method of movement (which means it is bad for some people) and may require a few sprites or animations (unlikely to be added).

The up sides are it costs less AP to step back into cover (no turning round), is less likely to trigger reaction fire (mutual surprise and no turning), does not mess with the current cover system (no need to program and debug exceptions to the cover rules for example), and has risks attached that can balance the benefits (still need to be visible to the enemy in order to spot them).

That appears to me to have much less of a negative impact on the game than the other suggestions I have read.

Well apart from leaving it as it is currently.

@Sathra If peering from round a corner automatically triggered a reaction shot, or at least a reaction check, then you would be in a bizarre situation where sneaking up to a corner then just sticking enough of your head round to see the enemy is actually more likely to trigger a reaction from the enemy than blindly walking out in front of them is.

[StellarRat]

I just don't see this as worth the effort to implement even if it was possible programatically. How would the alien AI have to be changed? They would certainly be able to peek too. It just doesn't seem worth the trouble to me. There are many other ways to accomplish pretty much the same thing tactically. Like moving someone around on the flank to look at the area you're interested in. Plus you still have to expose your troops to actually engage the target. Also, if you can peek around a corner why couldn't you peek over a window ledge while remaining 95% under cover, etc... It just opens a can of worms as far as the whole ground combat system is concerned and doesn't add that much to the game. I think we are too far down the road to start thinking about stuff like this now. If the ground engine were better and it was much earlier in could maybe see adding it, but just think it's too late now. Even some of the advanced game engines I've used don't allow peeking around corner. You can't do it in Skyrim for example.

Edited June 12, 2013 by StellarRat

[Xenomorph]

@Gauddlike

Don't get me wrong in my comments, i'm not saying this is a MUST have feature. I'm totally fine if it's not implemented, it's not like i'm getting my guys killed at every corner so my apologies if i sounded like a troll.

I know that these thing about games is always a box full of hard decisions, a most needed planning ahead and sticking with it (specially with a tight budget), and letting the community make suggestions about features can be as good as it can be horrible, creates pressure.

And why did i mention those games? Just as i could have mentioned old rock'n'roll if we were talking about current rock'n'roll its all been played before, only difference is the sound

[blubberdiblub]

Just as i could have mentioned old rock'n'roll if we were talking about current rock'n'roll

Damn, you got me excited, because I believed for a moment you were talking about Rock'n'Roll the game, which would have meant there is a remake of that out ;P

[Gauddlike]

@Gauddlike

Don't get me wrong in my comments, i'm not saying this is a MUST have feature. I'm totally fine if it's not implemented, it's not like i'm getting my guys killed at every corner so my apologies if i sounded like a troll.

I know that these thing about games is always a box full of hard decisions, a most needed planning ahead and sticking with it (specially with a tight budget), and letting the community make suggestions about features can be as good as it can be horrible, creates pressure.

And why did i mention those games? Just as i could have mentioned old rock'n'roll if we were talking about current rock'n'roll its all been played before, only difference is the sound

Didn't think you were trolling at all, just trying to point out that if a feature is part of the initial design then it should fit in well with it and be part of the balance.

If a feature is tagged on towards the end of development it had better have a lot of work put into it or it will not work.

Have to see if the resources are available once the balancing passes are done to think about new features.

I would still like to see the flamethrower get finished off and make a comeback into the game if there is some spare cash left over.

[Andeerz]

The extended sight range doesn't really exclude my view of what makes it potentially unbalanced.

I see what you mean. But to me the only thing that would be unbalancing no matter what is the squad sight issue. The other things would (ideally) be equally exploitable by both humans and aliens. HOWEVER, realistically speaking, the AI of the game probably won't be good enough, at least any time soon, to be able to exploit this to full effect as humans could.

Your soldiers would still be able to lean out of cover, shoot the enemy then lean back without the enemy having a chance to retaliate.

Not necessarily. If this was to be in the game, I would hope there would be some chance of reaction fire. Even if the fire doesn't hit, it could suppress with much effect. Just think about it. An alien notices one of your guys peeking and fires a burst. If it doesn't hit the guy's head, but still manages to hit the corner, there would still be a chance of suppression. And that could definitely throw a huge monkey wrench into your plans for the turn or next turn. The risk would be there, and a very good one at that, provided other things in the game (like accuracy) are fixed as well! Also, imagine if a reaper notices and is just around the corner and has enough TUs to come up and kill your peeker...

But this would only be for sure good to have, in my opinion, if there is a mechanism in place to at least give the AI and the player a choice in whether or not to reaction fire such a well-covered target. This would still be good to have in the game as it is now, as I think one should be able to choose whether or not to spend reserved TUs on a low-accuracy shot on a guy moving far away or save it up for the next guy who might move or fire who is closer and easier to hit.

Anyone who was armed with an area damaging weapon could fire shots near enough to hurt the enemy without putting themselves into a spot that was visible to the enemy.

Depending on grenade range you could still drop stun gas onto the enemy without putting yourself in line of fire.

We can still do that now, and I do it often even in the vanilla game. To me, that's the real benefit of area-damage weapons. In any case, this is a squadsight issue (but not one I consider a problem, really), and not one that arises from peeking. Though I can see how the peeking feature, provided it presents NO risk to those doing it, would make this issue worse, even making it a bit of an exploit. I feel like that is one of those things that would need testing to know for sure. In my opinion, so long as the aliens can do the same thing, the AI is good enough, AND there is a chance of reaction fire, it shouldn't be unbalancing. I'd actually welcome the increased challenge this would present (though it would require some map redesigns probably).

Edited June 13, 2013 by Andeerz

[Andeerz]

Didn't think you were trolling at all, just trying to point out that if a feature is part of the initial design then it should fit in well with it and be part of the balance.

If a feature is tagged on towards the end of development it had better have a lot of work put into it or it will not work.

Have to see if the resources are available once the balancing passes are done to think about new features.

I would still like to see the flamethrower get finished off and make a comeback into the game if there is some spare cash left over.

And this.

[ClaytonCross]

I would be interested to hear ideas on how the rewards can be balanced out because realism and cool factor don't save a game from exploitable mechanics.

Quote Sathra to:

"I like it how it is. Every corner is scary, and takes some thought to deal with (I like to shoot through the walls). Might be realistically silly, but I enjoy it. Also helps that I easily memorise spawn points after a couple missions on a map ."

I have an idea and I know some people are complaining about this and I am going to suggest making it worse but extend alien site during the day a little more.

- Sathra's Fear factor of walking around the corner into auto shot is till there because you don't know if some one can see you same as before.

- Gauddlike's fear of a squad sites with no persecution is still there but balanced by:

1. Aliens having initiative in all engagements so its not likely they will die with out getting there shots in. It is more likely your soldiers will die from reactions but if they get close and in cover they can pin an alien down.

2. I would also suggest that the reaction shot LOS does not change at corners so that aliens advancing or flanking your units don't risk being assaulted by players they can not shoot at without advancing. So corners increase defense but not reactions does not allow reaction shots around corners at all. So ya your cover is great until he flanks you or blows it out then you need to pull back or kill it fast.

3. No reactions around corners and extended visibility means aliens can also fall back and force you to fallow into reaction fire in order to try to use squad site so yes you may move to a corner see an alien and unload all your guys on it but if you can't keep him there then you risk loosing your spotter every time you approach.

4. If you have no cover aliens will be generally more dangerous so you will use it when you can and rush aliens when you can't, which is about like normal but you will strive you use cover until you can "track" an alien for a rush.

5. Guess shots after spotting an alien should have a reduced chance to hit unless its a grenade or another explosive but aliens do it to and you usually have one maybe to shots with explosives which have shorter range I think so your going through alien reactions shot and/or risking scouts so that you can get in range for him to grande you (destroying your cover) so you can use yours and maybe be in the open for other aliens.... I think that is its on risk. Rockets are an exception but at the same time your not normally going to have a full squad of rocket launchers moving slow and with 2 shot each. If you did aliens would get more shots out of site and if you miss twice your out of luck. If you have 1 guy with a rocket launcher he will not likely have LOS on all aliens or enough ammo to shoot more than 2.

[JanPanbran]

Is there not a command to peek around a corner, rather than stepping out manually, and turning around (putting yourself at risk, and wasting probably more AP than you should)?

i want this too!

[ladlon]

Wow, look what I started!

An interesting debate. Thing is, what I'm suggesting wouldn't change anything, nor require any AI adjustments. I'm basically just saying to have a command to peek around, which in reality (programwise) would just be like a macro/hotkey to do a 'move out of corner, turn around 90 degrees, move back into corner, face the original way again' combo... and treat it exactly as if you did each move manually (as you currently do).

It's entirely about visual appearance, rather than changing how things work. Functionally, they are identical (as are the AI reactions to it). I'm simply suggesting it because it APPEARS less clunky than 'step out into the open, turn around, step back into cover, turn around to original orientation'. Purely cosmetic. Does the same thing (in the engine/under the hood), but in one command, and doesn't look as silly as the robotic process of 'step out, turn, step back'. Kind of like replacing a 'get on top of fence, get off of fence' with a 'vault over fence'... same action, just VISUALLY displayed differently, and combined into a single action.

Not a huge deal, but then again, to me it doesn't seem like a huge deal to change it (since it won't affect anything else).

Just declunkifying the action.

[Gauddlike]

But how would the enemy react to that?

If it is handled exactly the same as stepping out into a different tile and turning around then they will shoot you in that tile.

If the player doesn't see their soldier moving into the tile they get shot in then it will look like a bug at best.

It would affect one major thing in that situation.

The player.

Their soldier would try to peek round a corner and get shot by a projectile that appears to have gone nowhere near them.

You would also need to explain why the wall did not provide any cover at all while peering round it.

As far as the game is concerned the soldier is standing in the open in one tile while as far as the player is concerned their soldier will be standing somewhere else in a safe spot.

If turning on the spot triggers reaction fire you would also need to explain why peeking an eye round a corner has such a high chance of attracting a reaction shot as well as no cover save.

It would look like a safe action but would give at least five chances of the enemy shooting you.

One for stepping out and one for each 45 degree turned.

And all of this without an animation to explain to the player what is happening as the current lean/cover animation would likely not be suitable and Chris is very unlikely to add a new one.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Gauddlike

[Sathra]

When I put forward the idea of 'peeking' triggering reaction shots, corners would still provide some cover from the shot. Not perfect, but good.

So it isn't completely risk free, and to frankly make a player jump when they find an alien with it.

[ClaytonCross]

@ ladlon

While I understand your intention I have to agree with Gauddlike that it really is an all or none thing. If you do an invisible move at normal cost and with reaction shots you risk making it look like a bug instead of a feature. If you do it that way you need to remove reaction shots to avoid this then adjust balance if needed. Also LOS would go away after you return (which you are discribing as automatic) so all you would see is a quick alien head to the right and then it would be gone. So you would not have time to see alien if it is off screen but in view range, you would not get a chance to shoot, and you would not get squad site. If you never actually saw the alien you don't know where to AOE so the feature becomes more risk then reward and actually less functional then just doing it yourself.

So ... I like the idea of corner shots and seeing around corners (possibly increasing alien site range for balance) but I don't think it would be wise to do less then that. Do or do not, there is no try.