First mission. UFO securing...

[Max_Caine]

yatagarasu, please re-read what I've written. I'm not asking you if you care what the developers think. I haven't written anywhere in that post you have written insulting things. What I am asking you is if you were a developer, who would you listen to? Please answer the question written, not the question you imagine is there. And no, the only possible argument isn't LOL BROKEN PLZ FIX. It's "This doesn't work - this is why, this is what's wrong, this what's needs doing". LOL BROKEN PLZ FIX doesn't tell the developer anything other that "I MAKE THE FUNNIES PAY ATTENTION TO ME".

Let's take your scenario A

My sniper have some extraterrestrial eye disease. Is there any possibility for proper treatment?

My assaults can make two perfect shots from a distance of two screens from their m16. My sniper can't hit a standing reptile from 20 feets.

And compare it to scenario B

For now I lost my tank just because my highly trained sniper was not capable to hit anybody. Why. i don't know, because assaults with m16 cleared the area in few shots. Firing beyond their firing range. They even have higher accuracy percentage than a sniper rifle on it's aimed 50tu shot.

If you were the developer which one a) gives more information, b) presents the problem in an understandable manner, c) doesn't look like someone is just complaining? From scenario B I can ask you straight away "did you know that sniper weapons have a 50% penalty to-hit if they move, and crouching or turning on the spot counts as moving? Did you move your sniper, make him crouch or stand up, or make him turn on the spot". But in scenario a) I have no idea what's going on other than someone is complaiing their sniper keeps missing. If this is not the case, then there's something wrong there that needs investigation.

[yatagarasu]

This is not Belarus, we're used to a slightly more civilized and polite form of argumentation

Sweden? You are used to immigrant riots, I know

First, stop thinking that everyone except you is an idiot. Developers know how to write code and that it should be good code. This isn't your high school programming assignment, it's actually difficult to make something complex, so there will be bugs and incomplete things, like how grenades currently work. Please report that, it is very helpful, but quit treating developers like morons that write broken code on purpose.

Ok, where do i wrote that I am thinking that anybody except me is an idiot? And are you a developer?

Second, do try to understand some aspects of the game first. It can be confusing even if you've played X-COM, with things like heavy weapon movement penalties. I've played the original X-COM a fair bit, yet it was hard enough to get used to certain things in Xenonauts, and I am still learning.

I am not writing about moving any heavy weapon. I am writing about firing sniper rifle. Sniper rifle miss. m16 hits.

I don't think that this is fair. You are telling me to be polite and civilized... ok. But do you know the definition of word "fair" ?

It is like when alien have some crazy plasma gun, shoot's and kills my soldier with one hit - that is fair.

And when alien with plasma gun is constantly suppressed by my tank, is hit three times by redneck's shotgun, and sniper constantly miss, so there is more chance to hit him by autofiring than by one accurate sniper shot. - that's stupid.

And selling game with such a mechanics is not fair.

And being polite, but not being fair and honest - is hypocrisy.

Videogame development is not so complex if focus on main things first.

And all that stuff does not matter. If you want to defend developers you can. If you want to fight for something it's your choice. I am here not for that. I am writing my impressions of the game in a form I wont and I can. I am not telling anybody what to do. If you don't like - don't read. You are free to choose.

[yatagarasu]

"did you know that sniper weapons have a 50% penalty to-hit if they move, and crouching or turning on the spot counts as moving? Did you move your sniper, make him crouch or stand up, or make him turn on the spot". But in scenario a) I have no idea what's going on other than someone is complaiing their sniper keeps missing. If this is not the case, then there's something wrong there that needs investigation.

Yes, I got your point. And I am simply complaining. I don't care why sniper have a 50% penalty, of which I don't know anything and game does not show this to me somehow. Also I don't know why sniper should have 50% penalty, if he spends 50tu - 90% of his Tu on aiming. That looks like sniper can't hit a target. That's how it looks from a perspective of a new gamer. Is that good ?

Yes, you can argue that according to some real life experience, that is the case. But I want to tell you and developers that this is no fun. But ok, maybe, you are right. It is intended.

But first, why my sniper had 5% chance to hit on aimed shot, while assaults had 10% from the same distance.

Second - how is it intended to use sniper on a farm, which is cross-blocked by impenetrable bush walls? How is it intended to use sniper on any map? It is nearly impossible not to turn him on the spot.

Is there even any reason to use sniper?

[Solver]

Ok, where do i wrote that I am thinking that anybody except me is an idiot? And are you a developer?

Not being a developer, I can clearly see your arrogant style. I am just pointing this out to let you make more useful comments - I know that, if I were a developer (and I've developed other things), I would just ignore something written in your style.

I am not writing about moving any heavy weapon. I am writing about firing sniper rifle. Sniper rifle miss. m16 hits.

I don't think that this is fair.

And the sniper rifle does count as a heavy weapon, for instance, which is helpful to know.

As for most things that you say, please remember that this is a first beta version so the balance is currently way off, and no, the game isn't "fair" in many ways. This will be the main focus of development for the coming weeks. Which the developers are glad to have help for, but I know that posts written with an attitude of "все пидоры, а я - Д'Артаньян" are far less likely to be taken into account by developers. If you just want to leave your impressions and do not care about whether they are taken into account, then there is also no need for you to adjust your form of writing.

[Max_Caine]

yatagarasu, if you didn't know that moving or even turning with a sniper rifle incurs a 50% penalty to-hit, then that is a problem which must be addressed. I won't argue that it seems strange, or wrong that such a penalty exists, that's not been the point of my argument in my two previous posts. My argument has been you have not communicated your problems except to make one-liners and complain about why x doesn't work. In the dialogue between you and I, it turns out you did not know about this penalty. You think that's wrong. Okay, there's a thread for that.

However there is a clear communication problem between the game and the player. I wouldn't know there was a communcation problem from your posts prior to the discussion we had. As a consequence of this dialog, I have raised the issue in the Ground Combat UI improvements thread, linking back to your particular post on the matter. If you want something done about the problems you have, you can't just complain and not give anything substantial about the issues you have. Is the discussion you and I have had not proof, real proof that LOL BROKEN PLZ FIX doesn't work, and "I am having problems, these are the problems" works so much better?

[Lightzy]

turning with a sniper I do not think counts as moving.

The odds of hitting (as displayed) don't change. they only change if you move and then try to hit.

I definitely agree however that the game mechanics could be made much more clear to the player, perhaps in the form of a first-mission tutorial

[yatagarasu]

Ok, this Forum is for Beta Discussion, my bad I thought it is for Beta Impressions. But i still don't see much difference.

And I was not complaining about something broken please fix or was not meaning that "все пидоры, а я - Д'Артаньян" ok? ok.

So basically, I don't really care. And I am not like "This Game sucks, That game is much better".

It is focus testing, when you are giving your game to someone who don't care and he tells if he likes it or if he not.

[Sathra]

Turning, standing up, or crouching don't count as movement for heavy weapons penalty. Its only actually moving tiles that triggers it.

Yatagarasu, Max is right, your short posts aren't helpful at all to making the game better and simply sound like petulant whining. Explain what you expected at least. This close to just locking the thread.

[yatagarasu]

Concerning the Snipers...

He does not move. It have 49% hit. And it hit cactus. m16 from that point aimed shot 40tu's had 10% lover hit ratio... but it always hit, I can't explain why... Maybe my random generator is broken. Or I am so lucky. But ok. m16 will have a damage penalty i think, on such a great distance. But it is not vital. Aliens when they are hit start to behave strangely.

Ok. about snipers.

There was a great concept in original XCOM - stamina. It was spend when you move, and was restored every turn. It was not restored fully, and was spend according your ammunition weight. So, if you move much, you can en up with plenty of TUs left but not stamina. So you can't move. So for snipers, if you have full stamina - than you can snipe on 20s, 30s TUs without any penalty. Greater TUs shots can give you greater hit chance for moving targets (I don't think they count now, but it would be funny if they do).

If you have some stamina spend - then you should use 40, 50 TUs shots to restore some of it and then make a 20, 30 shot.

So snipers will have big stamina penalty if the move too much and not much penalty if they make a step - Still the should have a big penalty if they make a step, but it should be possible to neglect it by making a 90% TUs shot.

I know TUs are fixed now, and highter experienced soldiers can have 100TUs, so snipers will be able to make two perfect shots - but I think this will be bad, for snipers. But great for assaults. Maybe snipers should have special ability - restore stamina - which will use % of their TUs.

Second - snipers should ignore enemy cover. Or have lower hit through cover penalty. They are snipers after all.

[Sathra]

Stamina/Energy was annoying. Either it had no effect, or it just made missions longer while you waited for it to regenerate.

I don't think it was spent faster due to weight (and a quick check of the fan 'Pedia supports this), but due to terrain. So walking through crops drained stamina faster. Regen rate was based on the Energy stat they were hired with.

[yatagarasu]

Um yes, never had much problems with stamina, but it sucks when it ends. Usually when you run much. Medkits had stimpacks if I remember, but they a costly to use.

But my point was not to remake stamina in Xenonauts. I was trying to show how similar idea can realistically manage snipers penalties.

[thothkins]

On snipers my understanding is that the APs are used in aiming, selecting the best shot and then firing. Modified yet further by the different TU tires available, but resulting in better penetration.

So, while turning wouldn't affect it, movements one way or another mean that the set up to the shot has to be redone/ started. It's not logically perfect, but that's what works for me.

Adding in a stamina balance, would have me wondering why everyone didn't have it, and it becomes more complicated.

Besides, the issue here is why the assault rifles are hitting so often in comparison to the sniper rifle. If that's not so noticeable, then the sniper rifle is not so much of an issue.

I was surprised when fatigue wasn't going to be part of Xenonauts. I do remember Chris really not wanting it. Possibly trauma caused by TFTD missions. In practice the missions are short enough that it doesn't seem to be a huge issue (he types while missing it slightly).

Although, I'd argue it's a nice balance to the strength exploit. Sure, run round the chinook, but you're only going to be able to do it for so long. and then who will take out the aliens, when you're too tired to hold up a rifle?

Although this will sound awkward,

"And being polite, but not being fair and honest - is hypocrisy."

just isn't so. Being polite and courteous to posters, devs and everyone else is what enables fairness and honesty to thrive. Resulting in assessments to be read, understood and acted upon. See, told you it would read awkwardly, especially as I read your posts in a light hearted sort of way.

[Sathra]

You only have to move a relatively small amount for strength gains.

I'm wondering if rifles just seem to hit more. You don't spend as much TU's per shot, so you will get more shots off with a rifle than a sniper. They both have the identical accuracy gains/TU (with the sniper having a higher max aim level/tu cost).

That or its the 'low accuracy hit' weirdness rearing its head. Its being looked at.