Early Musings on the Beta

[GreyArcher]

Hello,

I've been playing Xenonauts for a while now, but stopped back around November or December to give the developers some time to work out the bugs that kept crashing the game. When I saw it appear on Steam, I figured I'd give it another go. Here are my opinions so far, just shy of one month in on normal. (My memories of the previous build are hazy, feel free to correct me when necessary.)

No Jackal body armor to start with: Can't say I'm thrilled with the decision, but it does bring back memories of throwing legions of disposable rookies at the aliens from the first x-com, so I suppose I can work with it. Except for...

Decreased capacity of the choppers: (I forget the exact capacity from the previous builds (12 soldiers, or-8/1 maybe?), but I'm pretty sure that it was more than 8 troopers or 6 troopers/1 armored car.) Excuse me?! Part of why I preferred Xenonauts over Enemy Unknown was because you could have enough soldiers on a mission to provide decent overlapping fields of fire, and losing one soldier wouldn't cause an entire flank to cave in. I'm ok with making do with lots of fragile troops on missions, I could accept being limited to a smaller number of armored troops, but being stuck with small squads of unarmored soldiers at the beginning is not acceptable.

No starting armored car. I was never a big fan of the early game armored cars, but they did have their uses. (i.e. moblile cover for stun-stick capture teams) I'm not sure that it improves the game to have us spend time and resources to research and manufacture them rather than have them available to purchase. (Now that armored cars drop the already meager squad size down to 6, I don't think I'll use them much at all anymore.)

Can't afford 2nd base right away. My previous games always started with me breaking ground on the second base the first month, usually before the first UFO was spotted. You pretty much had to if you wanted any kind of decent global response capabilities (given the limited range of our choppers) by the time the alien terror raids began. I'm trying to save up enough to get Base 2 funded, but given the rate I'm bleeding money replacing armored cars and soldiers I expect the world to be their playground by that point.

No cover symbols: There used to be symbols that indicated the level of cover you could expect from a piece of terrain when you moved by it. I've been confused at several points now whether a given piece of terrain blocks line of sight, provides cover, or is just decoration.

Better stability: Hasn't crashed once yet. This alone makes it worth coming back to the game, and I want to give my heartfelt gratitude to the developers for fixing the issues that made playing before so aggravating. (If it can make it past month 4 without seizing up I'll be really impressed.)

Path of fire display: This is an excellent feature and I'm glad it's included. In addition to providing indications on how much you can expect cover to affect your aim, it gives you an idea how close you're going to be to shooting your teammates in the back.

Squadsight is still present: I'd heard rumors people wanted to see it gone, I'm glad to see it's still with us. Considering how short soldier's range of view is, I think squadsight is a necessity. (Besides, the only people that have much hope of hitting at extreme ranges are snipers (who have every right to hit at long range) and machine gunners (who spray so much lead they're bound to hit something.

Improved graphics: Maybe it's just me, but the ships look much better than they used to. Also, I have yet to NOT see a civilian due to invisibility, or have an alien corpse remain standing.

Those are all the points so far, I'll update as I get farther in. In summary, I like that the game looks great and is a much more stable play, but several changes to recalibrate the difficulty went too far. I'll admit the last version I played may not have been challenging enough in the early game (Going the first 2 months without a KIA doesn't seem right), but the current arrangement is a huge disappointment and I hope a compromise can be reached. (I may start another game on EASY and see how it goes, but my pride really doesn't want to take that hit.)

[flashman]

I believe chopper might be going back up to 10 or 8/1 with vehicle. The next 2 vehicles increase squad size again up to around 16. The hunter/armour changes feel painful to start with, though their is now a reason to research in the 1st month when previously you waited for the first downed UFO. Also weapons are being rebalanced.

It is possible to get a 2nd base up but it is more difficult in the 1st month.

[Phoenix]

My biggest surprise when I transitioned straight from the demo alpha build to 18,51 was the smaller squad... that struck me unnecessary, although I admit that this makes you play more "safe" and missions are still perfectly doable.. I'd not mind a slot dedicated to a vehicle only so you cannot trade soldiers for a vehicle, but you can deploy a vehicle in addition to this smaller squad (it's perfectly fine as you have to research and then produce your first vehicle). I admit, I'd use a vehicle as rocket support though and would dedicate my heavies to LMG duty only

[Chris]

There's no point in the later dropships if you start with a full-size starting squad (later dropships have a bigger capacity), and having a big team makes the starting missions take longer. The idea is you build towards having a large team of well-equipped guys, rather than you start with them.

Again, it's something similar for the armour. You don't start with Jackal armour or the Hunter because this way you get a pop-up explaining what they do (making it better for newbies), and so your engineers have something to do early. Plus, you have to choose in what order you want to unlock and build them.

Previously, the game was balanced so you had everything you wanted at the start of the game. That's not really a challenge or even particularly interesting, so I don't see us returning to that.

[StellarRat]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Chris on this.

[TrashMan]

I've been on a self-imposed exile from Xenonauts from v17, and only now I've started it again.

Don't mind the smaller squad size, but the startign base pi**es me off.

It's layout is horrible and inefficient, and it basicly cripples me on day1.

You only have enough room for 5 more personel initally, and the alien activity and deadliness early on are up the whazoo (given you have no armor or car to scout and soak up hits)

I was playing on normal and my starting soldiers were not enough.

Too many injuries and a few deaths, so I was forced to use a hunter just to survive - because it takes 12 days for the quarters to finish and I've hired 5 scientists.

Anything other than hireing extra soldiers is suicide - hunters take time and money to research and produce and die easily enough. Not to mention that they can EITHER scout or shoot. They only have 50 TU and fireing the MG costs 40. It practicly makes them useless.

By the time the living quarters were finished, I was barely hanging on with 80% of the soldiers in the hospital.

The battlescape itself - aliens seem more capable. AI defiantely made an improvement.

But there's just something odd about the balance of TU costs, sight and range. It just feeels odd.

Edited June 4, 2013 by TrashMan

[Sathra]

Throw in your thoughts for the balance discussion. More info is always good!

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Played about 10 missions in the new beta. One thing I will add is the sectoids seem much tougher than the lizards (3-4 shots vs 2 ) where the guide indicates the opposite.

[Wintermist]

I just wish we had a smaller dropship to really stop you from thinking "hey, there's room for lots more in here, but the game won't let me" until we get a bigger one. You'd just stop thinking about it then lol.

I'm okay with no armour, it's fun to have to get going on building up stuff from the start. Progress is always fun, even if it's small thing you feel an accomplishment from doing them.

I'm still annoyed that when I try to move behind an object I can't see what's behind it, so I basically move my soldiers blindly hoping I click in the right spot. I'd really really like a feature where if you mouse over the object goes transparant as if the soldier was already standing there.

[Steelpoint]

One thing I find annoying is not knowing if my soldier will be fully protected in cover, and what directions the soldier will be protected while in cover. It would be nice if when you mouse over or select a soldier in cover you see a, for example, white circle surrounding the solider in the directions that he will be protected in.

[StellarRat]

One thing I find annoying is not knowing if my soldier will be fully protected in cover, and what directions the soldier will be protected while in cover. It would be nice if when you mouse over or select a soldier in cover you see a, for example, white circle surrounding the solider in the directions that he will be protected in.

Yeah, that's a bit tough. I've gotten pretty good at eyeballing it with experience.

[GreyArcher]

There's no point in the later dropships if you start with a full-size starting squad (later dropships have a bigger capacity), and having a big team makes the starting missions take longer. The idea is you build towards having a large team of well-equipped guys, rather than you start with them.

Again, it's something similar for the armour. You don't start with Jackal armour or the Hunter because this way you get a pop-up explaining what they do (making it better for newbies), and so your engineers have something to do early. Plus, you have to choose in what order you want to unlock and build them.

Previously, the game was balanced so you had everything you wanted at the start of the game. That's not really a challenge or even particularly interesting, so I don't see us returning to that.

I agree with all of your points individually, it's the combination where things get painful.

Take an early scout assault (Ballistic tech, no jackal armor) for instance. 6 aliens (I believe), several with plasma rifles. I'm given the choice of 8 vs 6, or 6 vs 6 with an armored vehicle. Plasma rifles shred cover, frequently kill in one hit, and I can expect to lose at least 1 soldier to an alien carrying one, usually more. Armored cars can usually survive one turn of rifle fire, but a 2nd will take one down. The 'nauts are seriously outgunned in this situation with starting equipment.

Original Xcom dealt with this by having huge squads. I could afford losing 6 rookies to horrible plasma death taking a ufo when I started with 12. Alpha Xenonauts dealt with it with allowing basic armor at the beginning, Soldiers were occaisionally one-shotted to death, but more often could fall back and spend a week or two in medbay. Having roughly equal sized squads when one side is much more advanced in tech is sending my poor guys into a meat grinder. If this is the intent, I'll try and make it work, but it's taking a change in mindset. (We're not out to wipe out all the hostiles, we'd get burned down. Kill a few of the uglies, haul the bodies and tech onto the chopper for future research, and live to fight another day. Or if the path to the ufo is lightly guarded, run like hell for the alien ship and hold it till the aliens outside decide to go elsewhere (mission victory).)

I agree that the earlier builds were too easy, I'm not saying to go back to that. Having armor and tanks and 2+ to 1 numerical superiority made most missions a cakewalk. I'm just thinking that not having ANY of those three is brutal. (Maybe offer a choice at the beginning for starting with hunter tech, jackal tech, or increased chopper capacity?) Regardless, I'll stick with it though and see if we can pull through. (I didn't expect the 75% casualties from my early Xcom missions either, but we pulled through eventually.) I like challenges...to a point.

As for the pop-ups, wouldn't the jackal armor and the hunter armored car still show in the Xenopedia even if the team started with them?

[TrashMan]

The problem isn't that there's a equal number of enemies and that they are strogner. Those things can be dealth with with proper planing and a bit of luck.

The problem is aliens longer sight range and squad sight.

You WILL get shot first when advancing. And there is NOTHING you can do about it. And that is a problem.

The hunter is a poor solution given the price you pay for taking it along. It feels like dead weight given the TU's required to fire it's weapons.

What the Xenonauts need is some proper scouting equipment. A remote-controlled mini-drone. Throwable sticky cams. SOMETHING that can be thrown/dployed to help scout out the map.

That or aliens and humans should have the same sight range.

Or a significant nerfing to squad sight.

[Wolverik]

I was always hoping that someday there would be a solid remake for x-com and finally Xenonauts gives me hope again.

Unfortunately I stopped playing the game as it is because it’s too difficult for me (especially night missions).

The aliens still see you from far away, and you’re whole team just gets shot trying to find them and running towards them before you can shoot a single bullet.

I could try some mods from (Sathra) but what bothers me most is the promotion system where soldiers are promoted very rapidly and if you play well (or cheat) you end up with a team of officers in battle.

People always speak about realism, history … and so on , but this does not seem to bother anyone.

Still, overall this game looks very promising and brings back the old nostalgic dreams.

[Sathra]

As for the pop-ups, wouldn't the jackal armor and the hunter armored car still show in the Xenopedia even if the team started with them?

Its to give you something to manufacture before Wolf Armour/Lasers. If they weren't there your engineers would be deadweight for about a month or more.

[Sathra]

Low accuracy shots (such as shots across the map) is being fixed in the next experimental build (crosses fingers). I agree the aliens see too far, and I think its the 'guess' mechanic. Should possibly also be fixed by the accuracy fix.

Fast ranking is going to be looked at after other stuff is finished. Its relatively minor. Newest version of my mod, v4.1, addresses this (hopefully). I added it about 10 minutes ago.

[cybrbeast]

The problem is aliens longer sight range and squad sight.

You WILL get shot first when advancing. And there is NOTHING you can do about it. And that is a problem.

The hunter is a poor solution given the price you pay for taking it along. It feels like dead weight given the TU's required to fire it's weapons.

What the Xenonauts need is some proper scouting equipment. A remote-controlled mini-drone. Throwable sticky cams. SOMETHING that can be thrown/dployed to help scout out the map.

That or aliens and humans should have the same sight range.

Or a significant nerfing to squad sight.

I like aliens having the sight advantage, but I agree there needs to be some kind of counter. Wouldn't it be possible to have a scout soldier who doesn't draw reaction fire? I could see this scout being balanced by only allowing a scout to carry a pistol and minimal equipment. Maybe if you only equip a pistol the soldier would automatically become a scout. This would also make pistols somewhat useful.

This would also give you interesting options in balancing the soldiers you take with you. More scouts with nearly useless weapons, or more firepower.

[Sathra]

When the shields get fixed and added back in they could do okay for scouts. I used them for that alot in earlier builds. They have a pretty good chance to block incoming fire from the front.