Grenades needs improvement

[silencer]

I am very shocked at how utterly useless are the first grenades. Even the wooden bench doesn't get destroyed by the Alienium grenade. Shouldn't grenades be good for flushing out aliens out of cover?

I have thrown two Alienium grenades next to wooden bench and after 2 explosions the bench didn't break. Also why grenades dropped under the first aliens feet don't kill them?

I think they need serious upgrade in destruction power. Not only they cost 40 TU's to throw - the % of hitting is very low and the damage is meh.

[Solver]

It was a bit overdone but only because grenades were extremely powerful up to the last version a few days ago - they used to have nearly perfect accuracy and higher damage. They currently also decrease in damage the further you throw them, which, I believe, is not intended.

[silencer]

Well if they cost 40 TU's to throw and low % of perfect throw their damage should be almost as the HE rocket - maybe not that big but at least the basic grenade should destroy anything wooden or small fences.

[Sathra]

I wonder if they'd do it if their damage type was changed to incendiary?

[Gauddlike]

The majority of ground combat weapons have had their statistics set to a baseline so that balancing can begin from there.

Any comments on adjustments can be added to this thread which (I believe) Aaron has been watching with regards to weapon balance.

[Crowst]

The way to balance grenades is make them like X-Com grenades. Make the blast radius very large and damage very high so that if you fumble it you will kill a whole lot of friendlies. You also make sure that the grenade has to be primed and dropped grenades explode. The most important balance is the TU cost. If I remember right, it was ~3 TUs to transfer from a location on your body shoulder strap to your hand, then 50% of your TUs to prime the grenade, then 25% of TUs to throw it.

So you HAD to use at little more than 75% of your TUs to use grenades. This meant you couldn't move much and throw a grenade. It wasn't easy to get into a position and have the aliens just stand still and let you throw grenades at them.

Grenades in Xenonauts are counter-intuitive when you first use them because they work nothing like real grenades. On the other hand, X-Com grenades act exactly like real grenades while also being balanced by other things. I remember always getting a lump in my throat when I decided I was going to have to use a grenade in X-Com. It was just plain dangerous, just like real life.

[Sathra]

I used tons of grenades in the OG. In many cases I used them instead of shooting. They were just more effective.

Then there was TFTD, and there was no reason NOT to use the Pulsers. They were incredible.

[Spyda665]

Don't think ill ever try grenades ... Just did a night mission and half my thrown flares landed at my own feet .. Not sure i want to chance that happening with explosives, and the TU's to throw is WAY to expensive i think

[xcorps]

That's because thrown items are handled the same way gunfire is atm, according to what I read in a thread complaining about that very thing.

[StellarRat]

It's not supposed to be a grenade fest guys. They have limited range. Also, they aren't made to "blow up" benches. They're made to kill stuff with fragments. If you want blow up terrain you need C4 and rockets. We've already gone through a phase where grenades were better than any other weapon and it wasn't fun. People were winning missions with nothing but guys loaded down with grenades and no rifles, etc...

[silencer]

But if grenade doesn't kill aliens is there any point to use them ? Bah even direct hit with Alienium Rocket don't kill anyone.

[StellarRat]

But if grenade doesn't kill aliens is there any point to use them ? Bah even direct hit with Alienium Rocket don't kill anyone.

Some aliens are very resistent to explosives. You can definitely kill red shirts and lizards with even level 1 grenades. It's possible the grenade power might need to be turned up some though specially for higher level grenades.

[silencer]

I've never been able to kill basic aliens with level 1 grenade - sometimes I'm not able to kill them with 1 rocket - unless I weaken them first. Talking from Veteran difficulty perspective.

[StellarRat]

I've never been able to kill basic aliens with level 1 grenade - sometimes I'm not able to kill them with 1 rocket - unless I weaken them first. Talking from Veteran difficulty perspective.

Yeah, they are much harder to one shot with anything on veteran. I gave up on Veteran because the money was just to low to keep up with my losses. I'm playing Normal now so I can get further into the game.

[Andeerz]

When I play, I mod the game to have a very high TU cost for grenades (45, though I'm toying around with 50). I also set the range to 30 and damage up considerably, though it still often takes multiple grenades to kill something, which I don't mind since we are talking about aliens with uber armor. What I end up getting is, I think, a sort of good balance (but grenades are still too accurate).

Anyway, I think that the best way to fix the grenade problem is to have things operate like Crowst suggested. Except I would have the timer work different than in XCOM. I DO NOT have any knowledge about how real life grenades work, but perhaps there could be two throwing modes; one where the grenade explodes the turn it is thrown, and the other where the grenade is thrown and explodes at the end of the next turn. For both modes, the grenade would be primed, costing some TUs. Then, for the first throwing mode, the holder of the grenade would have to spend a large fraction of their TUs (like 90%, which represents the amount of time the grenade would have to be held, if that is indeed how they work) in order to have the grenade detonate on the turn it is thrown. For the other mode, it would just be thrown at a cost of like 40 or so TUs. This would allow for grenades to have the punch they deserve, but also have a (in my naive understanding) realistic and, perhaps more importantly, balancing drawback, which is either an entire turn's worth of TUs needing to be spent, or a turn happening in between detonation which would allow for baddies (and Xenonauts) to run away during their next turn. I will suggest this in the other thread Gauddlike suggested.

[Kinky Kel]

Why can't it be a grenade fest? I love grenades. They were a pivotal invention in the art of war. Despite not being able to blow up terrain, a grenade landing at the feet of a soft bodied enemy would still cause gratuitous damage including massive bleeding.

In the game at the moment, you can't even lob them over walls. At all. Every time I try, They end up at the feet my my soldier. Isn't that what they're used for? They're an indirect means of causing damage.

[StellarRat]

Why can't it be a grenade fest? I love grenades. They were a pivotal invention in the art of war. Despite not being able to blow up terrain, a grenade landing at the feet of a soft bodied enemy would still cause gratuitous damage including massive bleeding.

In the game at the moment, you can't even lob them over walls. At all. Every time I try, They end up at the feet my my soldier. Isn't that what they're used for? They're an indirect means of causing damage.

Lobbing over things is supposed to be fixed. As far as the grenade fest goes in reality they aren't used that much. Usually only against emplaced enemies and you have to get insanely close plus they are very dangerous to use. We aren't fighting hand to hand most of the time. That said they have a place and are very useful in the right circumstances.

[TornadoADV]

Grenades aren't used a lot because there's generally a standing RoE order to minimize collateral property damage. Something that grenades aren't capable of following. So you'll see more flashbangs and smokes being used then frag grenades.

[remmon]

Lobbing over things is supposed to be fixed. As far as the grenade fest goes in reality they aren't used that much. Usually only against emplaced enemies and you have to get insanely close plus they are very dangerous to use. We aren't fighting hand to hand most of the time. That said they have a place and are very useful in the right circumstances.

Standard procedure for clearing a room IRL still is to lead with a grenade. When ROE and the structural integrity of the building allows, that will be a frag grenade. As for that poor bench, a steel construction will probably survive a grenade. Any lesser materials or combinations (Steel and wood I see a lot around here) will have the weaker material blown apart.

As for grenades vs rockets, rockets carry a lot more explosives across a much bigger distance. Which is why you only get a couple of shots. If you intend to go around using rockets a lot (As I currently do), set up 2 fireteams with 2 riflemen, an MG and a rocket launcher each. Give the riflemen 2 or 3 rockets in their backpack. That should get you upwards of 10 shots per rocket launcher.

If you manage to go through all that in a mission you might want to consider actually finding the aliens before you start shooting instead of trying to just level the entire map.

[Azek]

Perhaps we can find a balance if we have a 'release pin' mechanic like in the original X-Com. By splitting the AP cost of throwing a grenade in two, you can make grenades have a high AP cost, but gives grenadier flexibility for additional actions.

e.g. Turn 1, a soldier move to cover, crouches, takes off grenade release pin for 20AP. Turn 2, throws grenade for 25AP, bring out rifle, fires burst. Cost of grenade use still 45AP.

[StellarRat]

Standard procedure for clearing a room IRL still is to lead with a grenade.

I know, but in the game you don't clear rooms very often. Also, I'd be willing to bet well over half the aliens are killed by direct fire. The only room clearing do is the inside of the ship usually and I use stun grenades for that because I don't want to break anything. I guess I should have specified urban combat vs. open field.

[StellarRat]

In the game at the moment, you can't even lob them over walls. At all. Every time I try, They end up at the feet my my soldier. Isn't that what they're used for? They're an indirect means of causing damage.

Yes, and it is on the list to be fixed.

[Grazgul]

I know, but in the game you don't clear rooms very often. Also, I'd be willing to bet well over half the aliens are killed by direct fire. The only room clearing do is the inside of the ship usually and I use stun grenades for that because I don't want to break anything. I guess I should have specified urban combat vs. open field.

This is true.

I wouldn't mind grenades being much more rewarding.

My thoughts on the matter:

Grenades in general

No fumbling or dropping!

A max range

Much greater accuracy with a much greater decline in accuracy

Larger HE effect and more destruction to the environment (shattering windows, splintering pallets ect)

Flash-bang

Chance to completely suppresses opponents for a single turn

Always cause accuracy & sight penalty for 2 turns to anything that's caught in the blast. Penalty diminishes over length (not as big a penalty the next turn) and in distance from explosions (aliens in the outer reaches suffer less of a penalty)

EDIT: I forgot to mention for flash bangs that it would be great to have a small smoke effect where grenades detonate for 1-2 turns. It looks nice and is a great reference for players.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Grazgul

[green slime]

I know, but in the game you don't clear rooms very often. Also, I'd be willing to bet well over half the aliens are killed by direct fire. The only room clearing do is the inside of the ship usually and I use stun grenades for that because I don't want to break anything. I guess I should have specified urban combat vs. open field.

You don't clear a room in the game very often, because the damn grenades are useless. Range, AoE and damage are too low. I can accept a degree of inaccuracy over a greater distance, but it shouldn't be so difficult to hit someone with a small weighty object when they are less than 60 feet away. You should at least get the grenade within hurting distance, and remove/damage their cover, and/or stun them.

From wikipedia

"Modern fragmentation grenades such as the United States M67 grenade have a wounding radius of 15 m (half that of older style grenades, which can still be encountered) and can be thrown about 40 m. Fragments may travel more than 200 m."

The level 1 grenades in the game are more like glorified firecrackers.

Currently, the game consists of inching forward slowly across the map in order to take multiple aimed shots versus single aliens. (More "leap-crawling" than "leap-frogging"). A well entrenched alien behind good cover can halt progress completely for many turns, as a single alien plasma shot kills a Xenonaut outright, but the aliens take multiple rounds to kill. Thank goodnass for the AI challenge, because a co-ordinated response to a Xeno dustdown would be a massacre.

[StellarRat]

You don't clear a room in the game very often, because the damn grenades are useless.

They're not useless at all. Against the level 1 aliens (the red shirts) they are quite deadly. The problem with having the correct fragment range is that the grenades in Xenonauts only have ONE radius setting. The blast radius and fragmentation/wounding radius are rolled up into one number meaning the structural damage radius is way too big. Also, our Xenonauts can still throw way too far on the ground scale. The correct throwing range SHOULD BE about two to three tiles. That would put the Xenonauts in danger of killing themselves unless they're behind cover (accurate.) And like I said before, the aliens don't occupy buildings or their ships as much as they should so the opportunity to use them is limited. Even if the grenades were more powerful I still wouldn't use them inside an alien ship because the alien equipment is too valuable to destroy. Finally, it very rare for the aliens to bunch up in a building or ship where a grenade could take out multiple bad guys, so it's usually easier and safer just to shoot the one.