Ground Combat Balance Discussion v18.51 Hotfix 3

[Gauddlike]

Well you could still observe the effects if you don't lose sight. Its your choice if you run off and can't see the results. Most of my reading indicates that soldiers don't know what happened until they go back look (carefully.)

You could observe them but not act as they would be going off once you click end turn.

In a system like frozen synapse it works because all of the weapons use the same mechanic.

I dislike the mechanic as it forces me to use grenades defensively when I am stationary.

I prefer to be more mobile and to use them to clear the enemy before I move forward not fire, wait a turn, see if I hurt them, try again.

That just slows the game down without providing anything interesting in return.

It also wouldn't make sense to only have frag grenades act this way.

Rockets are far more lethal but don't suffer from that mechanic.

Other types of grenade could be practically useless if they were stuck with it.

Flashbangs that suppressed reaction fire after you have moved, smoke that provides cover just in time for the enemy to use it.

Frags that damage cover or take out the sniper pinning you in place just when you can no longer move or fire to take advantage of your tactic.

[Solver]

Much as I don't want to say that the aliens are overpowered, and they are not really, there might be a problem with the heavy plasma. It's like your LMGs only much better, and indeed often 1-shot well-armored guys. My first proposal would be to reduce damage to the environment on that gun so that it would not usually destroy a piece of cover right with its first burst. Got burned by this yesterday - hiding behind some console in a UFO, got fired at by heavy plasma, first two bolts destroyed the console, the remainder kills. Ouch.

On the other hand the plasma cannon (or whatever the 1-shot splash gun is called) is kinda useless. It usually suppresses while doing no damage even to guys in scout armor, either the splash damage is too low or the thing is too inaccurate.

[Dranak]

Does anyone know if plasma cannons have that same bug grenades have (had?) where the damage is reduced by range? If not, I agree the splash should hurt a bit more.

[Waladil]

The problem with plasma cannons right now is that they've got the same damage as the plasma rifle (a weapon that's retired before you start fighting cannons!), are less accurate, and they're heavy, plus lack a burst fire.

So even if they get a direct hit, which is unlikely, they only do as much damage as a single plasma rifle shot. And the damage dropoff is laughable, so that whole "explosive damage" thing is pretty much meaningless.

All in all, I'm (pretty) sure they're not bugged. Just got shafted by this balance arrangement.

[Solver]

Ah, that would explain a lot. I know I am always happy to see aliens with plasma cannons because then I'm quite sure my soldiers will be fine even if caught out of position and fired upon.

[Lightzy]

Yeah, the plasma cannon doesn't damage my guys nearly at all..

Although where I am at the game almost every alien attack hits like an expert sniper, so I usually get two direct hits, which do hurt a bit.

Sathra, how do I mod the game to make aliens a bit less tough but more numerous? I think this would be the best balance for later in the game

[svidangel]

Haha, you want MORE heavy plasma aliens?

Anyway, the one nice thing about the heavy plasma guys is that as long as you can suppress them they seem to be completely unable to fire (at least so far, for the ones I've encountered.

Means I can either toss an electro grenade at em, or fire a bunch of low chance shots till they are cringing, then just walk up to them and punch them in the face with something. Plus I'm safe from that particular alien during the enemy turn. Pistols are actually one of my favorite things now since I can run all the way up and shoot them a bunch of times point blank.

[Hadrian]

Haha, you want MORE heavy plasma aliens?

Anyway, the one nice thing about the heavy plasma guys is that as long as you can suppress them they seem to be completely unable to fire (at least so far, for the ones I've encountered.

Means I can either toss an electro grenade at em, or fire a bunch of low chance shots till they are cringing, then just walk up to them and punch them in the face with something. Plus I'm safe from that particular alien during the enemy turn. Pistols are actually one of my favorite things now since I can run all the way up and shoot them a bunch of times point blank.

Well as far as I know they get 60 TU's and suppresion cuts the TU in half, so thats only 30 TU's left. Its not enough to burst fire, and I dont think the H-plasma has one shot modes.

[Lightzy]

Svidangel, yes, I want more aliens which are less tough, because this is a better balance than having few aliens who are snipermachineguntanks

[svidangel]

Yeah, just pointing out that one of the few advantages you have over the smaller number of heavy plasma wielding guys is that you can easily suppress them with multiple shooters, then walk up and slap them in the face.

[Sathra]

Yeah, the plasma cannon doesn't damage my guys nearly at all..

Although where I am at the game almost every alien attack hits like an expert sniper, so I usually get two direct hits, which do hurt a bit.

Sathra, how do I mod the game to make aliens a bit less tough but more numerous? I think this would be the best balance for later in the game

Alien numbers are in the 'ufocontent' folder, in files per ship + primary race combinations. Alien stats (armour, health, etc) are in AIprops.xml

[longbrodie]

Don't have time to read through all the posts here as I'm about to go to work, but has anyone discussed the possibility of giving more differences to the various weapon technology tiers? I remember hanging onto my laser/gauss weapons in the original X-Com games because they remained useful against various enemy types. For example, the Gauss Rifle was excellent for fighting aquatoids/gillmen because of accuracy and availability of ammo and low TU cost, and with the Hyperwave Decoder you would know what kind of resistance to expect when you shot down an enemy ship and could plan your squad load-out appropriately. As another example, Heavy Lasers remained useful throughout the original because of their bonus damage vs. sectopods and the fact that they never ran out of ammo. Right now I feel like there is no reason to keep your old weaponry once you advance to the next tier - more frequent reloads and a slight accuracy drop are not sufficient drawbacks to the huge damage boost. Hell, the basic cannons that were available from the start remained useful with HE ammo as grenade launchers vs. the lesser enemies... And you reliably ran into those lesser enemies, not just the elites, throughout most of the game.

[Andeerz]

You could observe them but not act as they would be going off once you click end turn.

In a system like frozen synapse it works because all of the weapons use the same mechanic.

I dislike the mechanic as it forces me to use grenades defensively when I am stationary.

I prefer to be more mobile and to use them to clear the enemy before I move forward not fire, wait a turn, see if I hurt them, try again.

That just slows the game down without providing anything interesting in return.

It also wouldn't make sense to only have frag grenades act this way.

Rockets are far more lethal but don't suffer from that mechanic.

Other types of grenade could be practically useless if they were stuck with it.

Flashbangs that suppressed reaction fire after you have moved, smoke that provides cover just in time for the enemy to use it.

Frags that damage cover or take out the sniper pinning you in place just when you can no longer move or fire to take advantage of your tactic.

I see what you mean, Gauddlike... with how suppression and other things work in this game, it might be a no-go to have the grenades explode at the end of the turn exclusively. And it would make smoke grenades and flashbangs pretty crappy (though I wouldn't mind smoke grenades having smoke accumulate over a turn instead of it being instantaneous... but I digress). But I feel like it would be awesome to somehow have the opportunity to allow for this to happen, perhaps as an alternate firing mode. And my reason for wanting this boils down to being selfish. I like to mod my game in a particular way where I make explosives a good deal more deadly and suppressive, among other things, and I want to be able to have my soldier or aliens to move out of cover to throw a grenade and then be able to avoid harm from the grenade they threw by moving back into cover before it goes off. In the original XCOM you can do this, and it allows for use of grenades much like how they are used IRL. As things are now, I feel like grenades are WAY too weak, and the limits placed on them are much too arbitrary. Also... I don't think frag grenades should be able to take out most cover... but again, that's another issue.

Also, even with the suggestion, the frag grenades might not be quite as lethal as rockets, but they can be lobbed over stuff and weigh MUCH less, which already more than makes up for their disadvantages compared to rockets I think.

Anyway, I guess this explosion issue is just an abstraction I'm going to have to live with. But I feel like with how the game works with frag grenades regardless of how they are balanced, they cannot serve quite the same tactical niches they do in real life and end up effectively being just mini rockets with really suppressed damage and blast radius, which I guess is fine and is a niche all its own. I know I'm harping on about realism, however I do acknowledge that realism takes a back seat to gameplay. And I understand that as certain issues about grenade functionality are addressed (like displaying trajectory, accuracy, stats-based throw range, etc.), grenades will become much better balanced and their existence better justified.

[StellarRat]

I see what you mean, Gauddlike... with how suppression and other things work in this game, it might be a no-go to have the grenades explode at the end of the turn exclusively. And it would make smoke grenades and flashbangs pretty crappy (though I wouldn't mind smoke grenades having smoke accumulate over a turn instead of it being instantaneous... but I digress). But I feel like it would be awesome to somehow have the opportunity to allow for this to happen, perhaps as an alternate firing mode. As things are now, I feel like grenades are WAY too weak, and the limits placed on them are much too arbitrary. Also... I don't think frag grenades should be able to take out most cover. Also, even with the suggestion, the frag grenades might not be quite as lethal as rockets, but they can be lobbed over stuff and weigh MUCH less, which already more than makes up for their disadvantages compared to rockets I think.

My two cents: Yes, I would definitely be in favor of allowing grenades to have a timer of 0 and 1 like the C4 but less choices. It would also be quite entertaining to see the aliens running for their lives out of a building when that grenade with a timer set for 1 comes in.

There is no way a level 1 grenade should damage terrain. The higher level grenades are a different story.

However, even level 1's ought to be fairly deadly. Probably at least a good as a shotgun (not the crappy nerfed one we have now, the one we had before) if they land in the tile with the target and maybe half as good in an adjacent tile. Seriously, if you can get close enough to use a grenade without getting your a$$ shot off you should be suitable rewarded. The armor mitigation should probably be pretty poor though.

I think the TU cost for throwing grenades is a bit high. Specially the counting TUs required for the whole process, equip AND throw.

Grenade range is still probably a bit too far. Linking it to strength will be helpful, but I won't have an opinion until I see how far that make the average thrower's range.

All explosive weapons should be VERY SUPPRESSIVE IMO. This ought to be a no brainer. A flashbang is basically a grenade with no fragmentation. How could a real grenade be less suppressive??? Rockets, same story.

Finally, I think you're going to see grenades come into their own once we can lob them over objects and out of full cover.

Edited June 10, 2013 by StellarRat

[Aaron]

Thanks for the continued feedback everyone, let's not get too derailed on individual details and keep it constructive.

On the topic of grenades, our latest internal build now has a system that hard limits the throwing range to 5 tiles + 10% of the soldiers strength; so a solider of strength 60 can throw a grenade 11 tiles. The "5" is a tweakable value. We will be fixing them to also allow throwing "over" obstacles, but the precise nature of how that system works is yet to be decided (in terms of what it is and is not OK to throw "over", how we deal with building walls etc...). Some of you obviously want a "trajectory" display for grenades, but I think we might find that exposes some of the smoke and mirrors that go into how grenades work a bit too obviously. We'll see though.

For the alien heavy plasma rifles - do you guys think it's OK that most aliens cannot shoot them if they are suppressed?

The alien plasma cannon is also less deadly than it should be - I have now turned off damage scaling over range for it in our internal versions which should improve it a bit, and then I will tweak the damage as needed. The problem with it is it appears relatively early to provide a little variety in enemy weaponry, but it remains static throughout the game - if we make it too powerful it could be very difficult for early armour tier teams to tackle. Considering also making its damage type incendiary so it messes up the scenery more easily.

Cover props is also something quite a few of you mentioned - general consensus seems to be they are destroyed too easily now, and I tend to agree. The problem is the health value for them has been set in quite a haphazard way, with no real system to say how many HP one type of prop should have vs. another (this goes for walls too, not just props, bit of a nightmare). I am going to have to come up with a system for how they should be set and plough through them all one day to rationalise them. If I was coming up with a system to do that what kind of things would you like to see reflected in it?

My intention with this balance stuff was to produce mod files you guys could install to test incremental updates I make to the balance as I go, but that plan has been a bit scuppered because the we've added new fixes and features that affect files like weapons_gc which you guys do not have in your current builds, so my updated files would probably cause instability. Probably best we just work towards getting the experimental branch up sooner.

[Lightzy]

I hope that cover items do not get stronger.

As it is in the beginning/mid of the game it takes many shots from xenonauts to remove cover. Instead I would just make them a lot more numerous on the maps, which leads to better overall tactical gameplay.

Also, the problem isn't with them being too weak. It is in fact very very solid and good.

the problem is with alien machine gun heavy plasma destroying them too easily because they can hit them twice in one burst. and everything behind them as well. They need to go, these weapons.

[Sathra]

That might be fixed with the accuracy fix (which makes low accuracy shots hit too often).

[mostevil]

Currently I'm finding gas grenades to be over powered. The knock the aliens out too fast too. It needs more exposure and to take a turn or two to take effect after gassing. Would be really nice if the gas spread over a couple of turns too. Low accuracy helps but the gas gives high AOE making punting in 5 gas grenades from BVR a safe option with good chance of success.

But throwing generally seems pretty messed up. The things go too far having better effective range than weapons for the most part.

If there's something in the way and it decides to hit it it will be thrown in an arc to hit the obstacle rather than interrupting the throw you ordered, hitting it on the way past. Ideally it'd be nice to see the proposed throw arc drawn out so you can hoy grenades over things (LSN style ).

Also I really miss being able to throw other stuff. Ammo clips and backup weapons to my troops. It was a big part of how I used rockets back in the original. Rocket guy fires, his mate throws in spare rockets or a rifle once he's out.

The scout car is currently pretty pointless it's slow, doesn't see that far and fires too in accurately to use. One of those 3 needs to be better. I'd go for faster to make it a proper scout, spot and run, maybe risking a reaction shot at most. Currently unarmoured inexperienced soldiers currently seem a better and much more cost effective choice for scouting.

Add to that that armour makes scouting infantry much less effective.. so they can't really wear it, and units not out front scouting don't need it. It becomes something you should only really put on door breaching type storm troopers. Perhaps a light armour type with some kind of imaging gear that increases vision would be good?

In terms of the aliens, the lizards pose no real threat because they have less vision than your troops and always seem to back away making them easy pickings. If they would gather friends and charge on in once they identify where you are it might be different, but their hanging back behaviour plays against their strengths. The starfleet guys are more effective with their better vision and inability to miss my guys.

Cover works really nicely at the very start of the game but doesn't work at all once accuracy's get up into the 80+ region. I think that needs to scale better to keep tactics viable once your troops get good. Perhaps even a suppressed state should make you less likely to take hits from the front 45 degrees to encourage more flanking. I like that shooting from high seems to negate low cover though, its a shame the game crashes out immediately after . I also agree with others saying some kind of cumulative suppression effects would be good. Being suppressed should really hurt accuracy a lot, it doesn't seem to, the same with being injured.

Burst fire being treated as a series of shots seems to cause all the problems both with it being a better option and with removing cover and killing those behind. It should really be a fall off in accuracy hard with every shot so it's only good as a way to maximise damage point blank.

The shotguns need a big boost up close damage as currently a rifle on burst feels a better option up close. You need a one big hit shot with a breaching weapon to not get cut to pieces by reaction fire after shot 1.

[blubberdiblub]

Also I really miss being able to throw other stuff. Ammo clips and backup weapons to my troops. It was a big part of how I used rockets back in the original. Rocket guy fires, his mate throws in spare rockets or a rifle once he's out.

Hehe, that sounds like a really funny and creative way to utilize throwing, but doesn't it also sound a wee bit unrealistic, throwing around explosives and precision equipment?

[StellarRat]

Thanks for the continued feedback everyone, let's not get too derailed on individual details and keep it constructive.

On the topic of grenades, our latest internal build now has a system that hard limits the throwing range to 5 tiles + 10% of the soldiers strength; We will be fixing them to also allow throwing "over" obstacles, but the precise nature of how that system works is yet to be decided...

For the alien heavy plasma rifles - do you guys think it's OK that most aliens cannot shoot them if they are suppressed?

Cover props is also something quite a few of you mentioned - general consensus seems to be they are destroyed too easily now...

#1 - Good news. I like the proposed system, although, I think it should probably have a bit less range. I'd start with 2 or 3 + 10%.

#2 - Definitely. My guys can't fire anything heavy when they're suppressed neither should the aliens.

#3 - I agree. My simple system in order of toughness:

A. heavy steel items like tractors, trains, etc... the highest amount of health (whatever ever you determine that to be)

B. concrete and stone constructions, like building walls and stone houses (Middle East maps)

C. light steel and aluminium stuff, cars, buses, trucks, barrels, steel tanks, steel doors, airplanes, metal warehouses and other sheet metal buildings

D. medium wooden constructions, mostly wooden buildings like residences, etc...

E. haystacks and other thick organic matter

F. Finally, light wood and paper, like stacks of boxes, crates, etc..

Edited June 10, 2013 by StellarRat

[Gauddlike]

I don't like the aliens being unable to fire their weapon at all after being suppressed.

I also don't like my own troops having the same issue.

Personally I would prefer to see suppression affect something other than AP amount to solve this problem.

I would suggest accuracy and possibly reaction chance although it does need consideration.

They would still be able to fire and reaction fire, it would just be much less effective than if they were unsuppressed.

They would also still be able to run for cover.

For props as long as health is determined by material type and construction (i.e. concrete wall tougher than wooden wall, metal container tougher than thin metal sign) and the stopping chance reflects the amount of space actually covered by the item then it will be fine.

I would start with a set value for each material type and a value for construction solidity then add the proper values together for each prop if I had to do the work.

For example:

Metal: 45

Stone: 30

Wood: 10

Thick: 30

Medium: 20

Thin: 10

So large metal containers would have 75 health, thin metal signs would have 55 health, a wooden fence would have 20 health while a wooden crate would have 30 and so on.

Doesn't cover all material types but it is just an example.

[StellarRat]

I don't like the aliens being unable to fire their weapon at all after being suppressed.

I also don't like my own troops having the same issue.

Personally I would prefer to see suppression affect something other than AP amount to solve this problem.

I would suggest accuracy and possibly reaction chance although it does need consideration.

They would still be able to fire and reaction fire, it would just be much less effective than if they were unsuppressed.

They would also still be able to run for cover.

I'm not sure they should be able to move, but I do agree that maybe they ought to able to fire with a severe accuracy penalty, like 1/4 normal. Your cover "health" system on the other hand I think is a bit off. I'd prefer that you had a base value for each type then a multiplier for thickness...maybe x 2 for medium and x4 for thick. So, a metal sign would be 15, a metal container would be 30, and a locomotive would be 60. Concrete/stone would start at 10, wood 5, etc.... If your system were used. But, a simple set of fixed values would probably suffice.

Is the cover health something that attaches the tile or is it part of the programming (hard coded)? Or is there some XML file that sets it? I haven't used the map designer, so I don't know if cover health is set there or somewhere else.

[Andeerz]

I wish there was chance of penetration of certain pieces of cover, as well, for all weapons. A box full of paper or a street sign should NOT stop (though it SHOULD affect the accuracy) of even a bullet from a pistol.

EDIT: oh, and also, perhaps units like drones and androns shouldn't be affected by suppression, or at least be able to fire accurately while suppressed. ;P

Edited June 10, 2013 by Andeerz

[svidangel]

I'd be fine if the aliens just did what my troops did when suppressed and swapped to their pistols. Not sure how likely that it with the programming though.

I'd also like to say I think large rocks and rock formations should have significantly more HP than the wall of any kind of house. The amount of thickness something has to burn through just seems like it would take more shots in my mind.

Also, give us some more damn rocks to hide behind! ;p

As a note about the armor and visual range: Mostevil brought up a good point that could easily be solved with a technology swap.

If Riot shields (or an earlier variant) took the place of the Jackal armor, I think that would work great. Something to give your up front guys that give them some of their own cover, and hopefully doesn't affect their visual range (or maybe negates ALL forward visual range if they kneel? like taking cover?)

Anyway, moving shields to an early tech would help both with the "sparse cover on map design" and wanting to give your "front-most soldiers protection more than the ones hanging back".

You could also have an upgrade to the riot shield later on, at its current position in the tech tree.

[StellarRat]

Also, give us some more damn rocks to hide behind! ;p

You don't think there is enough cover on the maps? That surprises me. I think some of them have too much! To me the current maps seem nearly perfect in that regard.