Ground Combat Balance Discussion v18.51 Hotfix 3

[Sathra]

After some testing it seems they will shoot at anything within about 20 tiles, regardless of race. Making the low vision of Sebillians pointless in most cases. Lost alot of 'backfield' troopers this way.

They do prefer units out of cover/smoke and will fire on them if they are within this range.

Reaction fire does seem to rely on their actual vision range however.

And yep, MG's are terrible at suppression now with their high TU cost to fire and the inability to suppress beyond effective range. Trying them out with 30 range now.

[Sathra]

There's alot of strangeness with the current accuracy formula. Regular hits at low accuracy, suppression not being applied beyond effective range, the power drop-off beyond effective range, etc ,etc.

[Aaron]

We have now fixed the issue where extremely low accuracy shots hit vastly more often than they should, so that will be in the first experimental build (no ETA on that just yet, will let you know).

You may already know, but suppression "damage" against a target is caused regardless of whether the bullets actually arrive anywhere near a target - for example you could fire at an alien at maximum range and suppress them, even though the bullet hit a piece of cover 2 tiles ahead of the firing soldier; because of this the suppression range limit is required, otherwise you could just suppress targets across the map with any weapon with low AP shots so long as you had LOS to the target's tile. I have to say I'm not keen on this system either, I'll see how it can be improved.

[Gauddlike]

Yeah it wouldn't be a problem if you had to actually get a shot near a target to suppress it.

Accuracy and range would come into play naturally without needing a hard cap on how far a weapon suppresses.

There were a few suggestions on alternatives in the suppression mechanics threads, some of them might be useful for ideas.

http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/1551-Suppression-Mechanics

http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/1542-Suppressive-Fire-Alternative

http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/2164-Proposed-Suppression-Model

http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/2256-Supression-Feedback

[Lightzy]

I don't find MGs to be that bad. I tried going all-MG and it was deadly.

They can destroy cover instantly with 2 shots and the third shot even hitting the target, supressing almost for sure, they got good damage and their hit chance are extremely high due to the volume of fire (but mostly because of the fact they remove cover)

The fact that all aliens past a certain point have a heavy plasma machine gun which is way more deadly than yours is also... erm... not fun.

On the other hand, rockets are now very well balanced, because most of your money comes from alien artifacts which rockets destroy. brilliant

Edited June 7, 2013 by Lightzy

[Max_Caine]

Having tried out a few maps where I deliberately set my troops verses an all-psonic crew (modded the Scout), I didn't experience anything like the psychic storm I should have done. In fact, the psychics didn't seem to do much of anything psychic whatsoever. In any further AI updates, I would suggest that psychic troops prioritise using their abilities, or I can't report back on how those psychic abilities affect the game!

[Waladil]

So some of you guys reported things way differently than what I encountered playing until I had an unrecoverable crash shortly after getting a Valkyrie Assault Boat. (Don't think the crash was related to said boat, that's just there to point out that I got really far.)

Sathra, in this version I found aliens would only fire at targets they could actually see. So the various sight ranges of aliens came into play constantly. It was last version that they have 20+ attack range... I know you mod a lot so maybe an update got borked? Except for a few times that they targeted me through cover that should have blocked LOS, it was fine. (They were still in nominal sight range, though.) Like I could chill 15 tiles away from a Seb and he wouldn't shoot. Even if I was shooting at him.

MGs aren't that bad at suppressing. They mostly don't suppress because they kill too quickly.

Aaron, there have been tons of suggestions on how to work with suppression damage. Mine was to have weapons suppress out to 2x their effective range, with suppression dropping off linearly after effective range. So if your gun has 20 range and you were firing out to 30 tiles, you'd have .5x suppression damage. If you refuse to acknowledge that alternate ideas even exist then I can't help you.

Also, I don't believe that guns suppress based only on where you aim them. From my experience it seems a lot more like they suppress where they hit. Ever fire at an enemy 18 tiles away and hit cover near the shooter, followed by allies near that cover getting suppressed? I have. Unless suppression is coded as a cylinder rather than a circle. But even that doesn't seem to jive with experience.

Max... I find that enemy psionics are deadly. Not alone, though. The ability to Detect Life is horrible. That's where I got tons of aliens firing at me from FoW. Any mission with an enemy psionic would be like that until I killed that guy. Although I didn't notice it TOO much except on alien base maps where it was really noticeable. Like, the turn that I killed the last enemy psyker enemy fire would just stop. So maybe they're wasting turns moving around on other maps? Also, the Dread abilities that Praetors have is just really annoying and potentially deadly. I've only had one person get mind controlled though.

[GizmoGomez]

If you refuse to acknowledge that alternate ideas even exist then I can't help you.

That sounded kinda harsh.

MGs aren't that bad at suppressing. They mostly don't suppress because they kill too quickly. [/Quote]

That's actually a good thing in my opinion. Personally, I'd rather LMGs have good suppressive effects, but also be lethal when the heavy weapon penalty is off. When it's on, it should be pretty much close to useless to ensure it's not used like an SMG or something.

So, trying to kill an enemy, the LMG should be very handy, in that it deals damage and it also suppresses them. However, it shouldn't be thought of as "that one gun that suppresses" primarily. Yes, it does this best of all the weapons, but it still is primarily a weapon, designed for dealing damage.

This is why I love the idea of Max_Caine's "Firewall" suppression tool. It suppresses enemies while dealing barely any damage. This should be "that one suppression thing" because it does it very effectively, suppressing just about every time (or if it doesn't it should) without hurting the target. This would primarily be used for getting subjects to stun. That way, you aren't risking killing the subject by using an LMG.

It allows for more specialized play.

[StellarRat]

Is it too early to begin discussing the different alien races? IMO, the Andron definitely needs better armor. They ought to nearly bullet proof against ballistic weapons. I was also able to suppress them fairly consistently with lasers. Aren't they suppression proof?

[svidangel]

I suppose if you had the LMG damage drop off rapidly after effective range, but the suppression effect not drop off till double effective range (just throwing out random numbers) you'd have that beyond effective range area to use them as suppression tools, and up close they would just shred things as normal.

Just imagine the pitter patter of really big bullets flying all over when they are fired way off (very little chance of hitting, but you'd want to keep your head down anyway).

or some specific numbers

effective range of 10, damage linear damage drop off to 0 by 20, after 20 suppression starts to drop off linearly till 30. Something like that

[svidangel]

Is it too early to begin discussing the different alien races? IMO, the Andron definitely needs better armor. They ought to nearly bullet proof against ballistic weapons. I was also able to suppress them fairly consistently with lasers. Aren't they suppression proof?

Damn, I REALLY don't want them to be suppression proof early on... but yeah. That fits the lore better

[Andeerz]

Grenades are super simple. You pull the pin and hold the handle (spoon) down. As soon as you let go off the spoon the internal fuse lights at that point there is no going back. It WILL blow up in 3 seconds, so you HAVE TO get rid of it, hopefully by tossing at the enemy. So, more than one mode is a bit out there. You'd have to be nearly insane to hold onto a grenade to "time it." I actually like how they work in Xenonauts. Demo charges are a lot more complicated and you can pretty much time them however you want just like in the game.

I see! Thanks! I think in that case it would be cool if the grenade could detonate at the end of a turn to give the thrower a chance to move back to cover. What do you think?

[StellarRat]

I see! Thanks! I think in that case it would be cool if the grenade could detonate at the end of a turn to give the thrower a chance to move back to cover. What do you think?

I think of no reason why that wouldn't be a good idea. Except that it would take additional coding for something that is already sort of working. You should be able to move away somewhat BEFORE it blows up.

[Gauddlike]

Only reason I can think of is that you would have no idea if the alien was going to survive your grenade in order to decide if you wanted to try and finish it off with guns, continue moving in safety, or if more than one grenade was needed.

If they still destroy enemy equipment then the amount of force you use needs a bit of consideration.

[StellarRat]

Only reason I can think of is that you would have no idea if the alien was going to survive your grenade in order to decide if you wanted to try and finish it off with guns, continue moving in safety, or if more than one grenade was needed.

If they still destroy enemy equipment then the amount of force you use needs a bit of consideration.

Wouldn't that be a highly realistic outcome? Besides you probably hear alien death sound .

[Gauddlike]

Would it be realistic to only throw grenades when you have no opportunity to capitalise on their effects?

I don't know, I have never used one.

If I shoot an alien with a rifle I see the effect straight away.

I know that I need to fire again to try and kill it or that it went down so I can move my next soldier to cover.

That would not be the case for grenades.

You would not know if the grenade was going to have an effect until you were unable to act.

You would be unable to follow up on a thrown grenade, for example if you used one to breach.

Currently if I throw a grenade and the enemy survives then I can shoot him, throw another grenade, fall back to better cover or any other action.

If I can only find out if the grenade will work by clicking end turn then I lose the ability to react to the situation.

Would the same mechanic be used for all grenades?

Smoke, stun, flashbangs and so on would be of much reduced effectiveness as well if they had no effect during your own turn.

[svidangel]

^ Flashbangs

Oh wait, do those even work yet?

[StellarRat]

Well you could still observe the effects if you don't lose sight. Its your choice if you run off and can't see the results. Most of my reading indicates that soldiers don't know what happened until they go back look (carefully.)

[Waladil]

Flashbangs totally work. I refuse to issue my troops with anything other than flashbangs and stun grenades. The 10-tile restriction on suppression is difficult to work with but they work great in that tiny region. Fantastic for breaching enemy control rooms. Also, stun damage doesn't get restricted by tile count. And high-level troops can still throw really far really accurately. So... still effective at capturing people.

P.S. Why are people claiming that frag grenades have a 40m radius? Because that's the radius of a defensive fragmentation grenade, like the F1. Offensive grenades (like the M67 still in US service) have much smaller radii that are less than throw distance. The M67 has an estimated fatality radius of 5 meters. 5. Injures out to 15. If we assume they're using offensive grenades, they should only kill out to two tiles, and wound out to five. (For this estimate I'm assuming that it's 3 meters to the tile, because the estimated throw range of a grenade is IRL 30 meters and in-game 10 tiles.)

Also modifying grenades to detonate at end of turn really just adds work for the staff, without large improvements to gameplay, tactics, or (dare I say it) fun.

P.P.S. I really don't understand the "P.S." system, do I? My post-scripts are longer than my actual post!

[StellarRat]

They must be mixed up. You throw one about 40 meters. That's not enough to get out of danger though.

[Waladil]

Uh... "They" are "you."

Also, the danger zone around a grenade is much larger than the distance someone can throw one (40m roughly.) So, grenades are always thrown from a location where you can get under cover after the throw (or you throw into a spot that will stop the fragments.) .

RGN (offensive):

"The grenade has a lethal radius of between 4 and 10 meters, and a safety radius of 25 meters. It can be thrown 30 to 40 meters."

M67 (offensive, most likely to be Xenonaut standard issue):

"What is the effective casualty-producing radius of the M67 hand grenade?

15 meters"

F1 (defensive):

"The distance the grenade can be thrown is estimated at 30–45 meters. The radius of the shrapnel dispersion is up to 200 meters (effective radius is about 30 meters, by some sources (Russian)"

So unless you want to start citing some pretty serious evidence, a Xenonaut throwing any offensive hand grenade would be largely safe at 40 meters, considering that it's well outside of both the RGN's and the M67's danger zones.

But this is a balance discussion, after all, so let's discuss how it would be balanced with 40 meters of grenade damage. Every map would consist of doing nothing but moving high-strength soldiers, obliterating the world with grenades. Move to cover, throw grenade. Move to cover, throw grenade. Nothing else matters.

That game would suck. It's not Xenonauts it's grenadesplosionsim. In Xenonauts (which has already a lot of variables changed for gameplay over realism), grenades do damage in small regions. They're in a pretty good place right now, except the arbitrary range limit needs to be removed in favor of a strength and skill-based limit that is less accurate. Maybe with some slight radius upgrades to compensate for the more random landing location, but not over 4 tile radius.

[StellarRat]

From the Wikipedia: "...Steel fragments (not to be confused with shrapnel) are provided by the grenade body and produce an injury radius of 15 meters (~45 ft), with a fatality radius of 5 meters (~15 ft), though some fragments can disperse as far out as 250 meters (~820 ft)..." Hence, DANGER ZONE (my words), not injury zone or lethal zone.

No sane soldier wants to test the 15 meter limit. Would you?

I agree completely with the bulk of your post though. It would make the game suck.

Edited June 8, 2013 by StellarRat

[Lightzy]

Also, please please don't give all enemies high powered plasma sniper machine guns..

It's why I've stopped playing the game until the next patch.

I can't be arsed to play missions where cover is pointless (gets destroyed by the first 1-2 shots in the burst and my guy gets hurt by the 3rd and sometimes even 4th) and the whole feeling of progression is lost as my guys with wolf armor now get '1 shotted' just like they did when they had no armor at all at the beginning of the game.

heck, it's even backwards progress because now I need to hit an alien 4-7 times with lasers instead of the 2-3 that were necessary before with ballistics.

the balance is off.

I think a much much much better alternative to making enemies unproportionally tough is to simply have more of them.

[Sathra]

I think a much much much better alternative to making enemies unproportionally tough is to simply have more of them.

*cough* I did both! As a result, plasma feels like a massive upgrade when you get it.

[Sathra]

Hmm, the mod shouldn't have borked the update, since I modified the files from V18.51. Unless it was fixed for the steam version.

EDIT: Hah, must have been playing a buggy version. Much less alien gunfire now!

Edited June 8, 2013 by Sathra