Jump to content

Ground Combat Balance Discussion v18.51 Hotfix 3


Recommended Posts

I still think that my suggestion on changing the fire modes to allow more variation between weapons would help here.

Being able to boost the accuracy of the assault rifle three round burst would make it more useful for consistent damage while being able to adjust the number of rounds in the MG burst would make it better for suppression and area coverage.

Actually I just though of one more thing I would add to the list of changes I proposed.

The deviation angle is currently set globally for all weapons.

Perhaps if that could be adjusted per weapon (or even per fire mode) then you would be able to individualise weapons much more.

The assault rifle bursts could be made more appealing by having less possible deviation on a miss while the MG may have a much wider possible deviation, especially while the heavy penalty is in play.

*edit* Maybe the heavy penalty could just increase the possible deviation as well as reduce accuracy?

(For people who are interested it was decided last time that the image used for the ballistic MG was actually the M240 rather than the M249 or M60.

That shouldn't really influence the balance at all though, I would rather change the picture to resemble the weapon balance than try and balance the weapon based on the picture.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How about reaction fire? Is it happening often enough? I feel a bit like it isn't reliable enough at the moment to be worth saving the AP for it instead of just using them during your turn.

Hi Aaron. I'd personally like to see reaction fire be buffed at least slightly as at the moment it doesn't seem too reliable, as you point out. Assault rifles and shotguns could both benefit from being more effective at reacting, which would give them more appeal over the heavier weapons in certain situations.

Also, given how effective cover is at present I wondered about the following tweak to reaction fire, which would feed into the suppress/flank gameplay style:

- Is it possible to add a calculation to reaction fire, so that it triggers when the chance to hit a target increases?

- So for example; if a trooper has line of sight to an enemy in hard cover he could choose to reserve AP for a reaction shot instead of firing with very little chance to hit.

- If the alien then moves out of cover in their turn (due to the presence of another Xenonaut attempting a flank for instance) then the overwatching trooper would take the shot as the alien breaks from cover.

Is that possible at all? I think it would be a nice addition as it would represent sending an assault unit forward to flush an enemy out of cover into the sights of a supporting rifleman unit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there any possibility of extending and increasing the movement penalty to two turns? In other words, the moving penalty would affect the accuracy for the turn you moved and crouched and one turn after that? And the weapon would be terribly inaccurate until that happens. That would make them a weapon you bring up and have to setup a bit to use. Same with all weapons with the "heavy flag". This would be a weapon you used to take care of emplaced aliens (in buildings), to keep a street clear, or to defend an area. Just like they are used in real life. We could then bring the LMG back up to the proper damage and accuracy it should have. Coupled with that it is ESSENTIAL that the burst fire gets fixed for reaction fire.

I'm no gun buff but,

That sounds interesting, maybe not a purist's preference, but as far as a game mechanic think it works nicely, but i'd like to see a lesser negative penalty on the 2nd turn all the same, with a bigger boosted accuracy when crouched since they are heavier weapons and more stable, that would work nicer with the sniper riffle, err is the SR listed as heavy?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The high rate of soldier stats increase isn't so much a bug as something we just haven't gotten around to tweaking yet - that will have to wait until after the first pass of Geoscape rebalancing, so we know roughly how many missions to expect in a "typical" game.

I think you guys are suggesting slightly over-wrought solutions for the LMG balancing. A multi-turn setup time would be a lot of work to implement, as not only do you need to alter the combat code but you also need to add UI elements to explain the system to the player.

I think probably the first thing I should tweak for LMGs is simply the for moving before firing a heavy weapon, as it seems very weak right now; they probably also need a buff in their effectiveness at suppression. I'm going to wait too hear back from Sergey if there is a bug causing to hit more often than they should before touching their accuracy.

Also do keep in mind the bulk of the game does not use the ballistic weapons - a big drawback to the LMG later in the game is simply that they cost significantly more per unit than other, less specialised weapons.

Can you guys give me some feedback on suppression in general right now? Is it too easy/hard? Do any weapons perform too well at it? How does it escalate with later types of alien?

How about reaction fire? Is it happening often enough? I feel a bit like it isn't reliable enough at the moment to be worth saving the AP for it instead of just using them during your turn.

Suppresion: On month 4 I see things suppressed by single sniper rounds sometimes, an LMG almost always suppresses. I'm not sure how many aliens are in the game so idk if I'm seeing almost everything out there or if there are loads more to encounter but this is my experince so far.

Reaction: Nonexistent lol I've encountered it twice, once from aliens and once from my guys. I'll have commanders with full TU's on 'overwatch' and aliens will just saunter on by them no problem lol (I actually had one walk behind my guy and blast him!)

Also of note, unsure what you mean about ballistics this could tie back to there being loads more aliens but currently I don't both with lasers bc ballistics do plenty of dmg.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think probably the first thing I should tweak for LMGs is simply the for moving before firing a heavy weapon, as it seems very weak right now; they probably also need a buff in their effectiveness at suppression. I'm going to wait too hear back from Sergey if there is a bug causing to hit more often than they should before touching their accuracy.

Also do keep in mind the bulk of the game does not use the ballistic weapons - a big drawback to the LMG later in the game is simply that they cost significantly more per unit than other, less specialised weapons.

Can you guys give me some feedback on suppression in general right now? Is it too easy/hard? Do any weapons perform too well at it? How does it escalate with later types of alien?

How about reaction fire? Is it happening often enough? I feel a bit like it isn't reliable enough at the moment to be worth saving the AP for it instead of just using them during your turn.

On your first point about moving fire, I agree. They ought to be WAY nerfed if they move. Also, they should be heavily nerfed if the shooter isn't crouched.

Your second point about the LMG not being used throughout the game, yes, that is true, but I'm assuming the same mechanics will be used for heavy weapons throughout the game. They should always be different than lighter weapons.

As far as suppression goes I think it's OK. Honestly, though, it's hard for me to a really informed statement here as by the time I get to December in game, nothing seems to get suppressed even by scatter lasers. Shouldn't suppression increase as the weapon technology increases? Don't know. You did state suppression is mostly to help the player at the beginning of the game.

Your last point about reaction fire. Yeah, it pretty much sucks. I don't think I've ever killed an alien with reaction fire. A big problem with it right now it that it NEVER burst fires during reaction fire even if you have enough points reserved for a burst. That's especially bad for the fully automatic weapons like the LMG and AR that require multiple hits to kill aliens. It also pretty much makes setting up guys for covering fire useless.

Edited by StellarRat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On a separate topic, could we buff shotguns, please? Right at the moment I'd put them somewhere between useless and bloody useless. You need to get way too close to an alien as it is, something that most of the time is not going to happen before either his buddies with longer range weapons kill the alien or the alien kills the shotgun toting soldier.

I'm of the opinion that if you're going to take the risk of getting that close to an alien, and survive doing so, you should end up with one very dead alien, moreover than not. As it stands, a shotgun hit is roughly on par with a rifle hit, which feels really, really underwhelming.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On a separate topic, could we buff shotguns, please? Right at the moment I'd put them somewhere between useless and bloody useless. You need to get way too close to an alien as it is, something that most of the time is not going to happen before either his buddies with longer range weapons kill the alien or the alien kills the shotgun toting soldier.

I'm of the opinion that if you're going to take the risk of getting that close to an alien, and survive doing so, you should end up with one very dead alien, moreover than not. As it stands, a shotgun hit is roughly on par with a rifle hit, which feels really, really underwhelming.

They used to be very powerful at close range with the last release they got way nerfed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As to late-game suppression: My LMG-only game went really well, until I hit a mission that constantly crashes (no workaround I can find, and I was playing ironman D: So that game is gone). Anyway, I found that I reasonably liked how suppression worked later on. If I fired 2-3 bursts (within range, of course) at any given alien, they'd either be dead or suppressed. Which totally makes sense, given the volume of fire.

My big gripe with suppression right now: The fact that it ends immediately at the edge of effective range. It's like the aliens are having the following conversation:

"Holy shit, they just killed Blar'Kell! Get down, dude!"

"Nah, don't worry, we're fine. After all, those silly humans are firing from outside an arbitrary range limit, no problem OH GOD MY LEG, WHERE'S MY LEG THEY SHOT OFF MY LEG!"

So if suppression levels just dropped off slowly after max effective range, that'd be great.

Heck, implement it like MechWarrior Online implemented damage dropoff:

100% suppression until max effective range, then decrease linearly to 0% suppression at 200% max effective range. So if you were firing at an enemy 30 tiles away with a range 20 weapon, they'd only be taking half suppression damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we could do that, then I'd go for that suppression drop off mechanic.

Also Aaron, Stellar and I were talking mainly about LMGs, but also about Heavy weapons in general. They should be super inaccurate with the penalty, but (especially the sniper and to a lesser extent the LMG/scatter) pretty high accuracy compared to ARs, carbines, etc.

One idea, concerning suppression,

Max_Caine has a mod that has basically a maser suppressive weapon. He's got artwork for it, it uses the scatter laser sprites, the researches, everything. It's really quite a superb mod.

People should take a look at it, it's really cool.

Anyway, all it does is suppress, basically. If that were included in the game, it would make suppression less of a LMG/scatter only thing, because you'd have a super awesome suppression-only weapon/tool in the game as well. With higher squad numbers, where we aren't restricted to 6 guys and a car for example, trading a guy off for a super effective suppressive weapon could be another player choice. It would add a lot to the game in my opinion, because instead of everything being a direct upgrade from the old, there'd be another piece of equipment added after you got laser tech, making it seem more like cool uses for alien tech are being developed and not simply some better medkits and more powerful guns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would that weaken the role of the mg type weapons though if their main strength over other weapons is meant to be suppression?

Or at least make them harder to balance as they would no longer be the best option for suppression so be less able to deal with poorer accuracy than weapons meant for damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, that's the thing. I don't think that LMGs should be a "suppression weapon" only. They should be used for killing as well, imo.

The Firewall (Max's mod) is basically only for suppression, and was, according to the background he made, initially designed to assist in stunning aliens.

It could make them harder to balance, I suppose. It was just an idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's so awesome about machine guns (and incredibly annoying since ALL ALIENS HAVE A 4-SHOT HEAVY PLASMA SNIPER-MACHINE GUN), is that they also remove cover from the enemy. And even without that, the volume of shots means you almost always hit even very hard to hit targets.

I'd go with all missiles, but since missiles destroy enemy equipment, all MG works very well indeed..

The penalty for moving.. who cares? it's not like im moving all my guys. I'm moving a couple, then using squadsight to machine-gun-snipe with my stationary guys. then advance those guys.

Of course later into the game it becomes impossible since aliens have superpowered machine guns and huge sight range, but until then? all MG is awesome

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow. I didn't know suppression didn't work past effective range. That does not make sense to me. Also, I do like the idea of anytime someone gets at least a certain amount of damage from a shot that they are automatically suppressed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, and an idea for grenades which I think are somewhat borked.

I think that the best way to fix the grenade problem is to have things operate like in XCOM, except I would have the timer work differently. I DO NOT have any knowledge about how real life grenades work, but perhaps there could be two throwing modes; one where the grenade explodes the turn it is thrown, and the other where the grenade is thrown and explodes at the end of the next turn. For both modes, the grenade would be taken out and primed, costing some TUs. Then, for the first throwing mode, the holder of the grenade would have to spend a large FIXED fraction of their TUs (like 90% no matter the level of the person, which represents the amount of time the grenade would have to be held, if that is indeed how they work) in order to have the grenade detonate on the turn it is thrown. For the other mode, it would just be thrown at a cost of like 40 or so TUs, and it would detonate at the end of the next turn.

This would allow for grenades to have the punch and range they deserve, but also have a (in my naive understanding) realistic and, perhaps more importantly, game-balancing drawback, which is either an entire turn's worth of TUs needing to be spent, or a turn happening in between detonation which would allow for baddies (and Xenonauts) to run away during their next turn. It makes sense... throwing a grenade is going to take AT LEAST as much time as firing an aimed burst shot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, and an idea for grenades which I think are somewhat borked.

I think that the best way to fix the grenade problem is to have things operate like in XCOM, except I would have the timer work differently. I DO NOT have any knowledge about how real life grenades work, but perhaps there could be two throwing modes; one where the grenade explodes the turn it is thrown, and the other where the grenade is thrown and explodes at the end of the next turn. For both modes, the grenade would be taken out and primed, costing some TUs. Then, for the first throwing mode, the holder of the grenade would have to spend a large FIXED fraction of their TUs (like 90% no matter the level of the person, which represents the amount of time the grenade would have to be held, if that is indeed how they work) in order to have the grenade detonate on the turn it is thrown. For the other mode, it would just be thrown at a cost of like 40 or so TUs, and it would detonate at the end of the next turn.

This would allow for grenades to have the punch and range they deserve, but also have a (in my naive understanding) realistic and, perhaps more importantly, game-balancing drawback, which is either an entire turn's worth of TUs needing to be spent, or a turn happening in between detonation which would allow for baddies (and Xenonauts) to run away during their next turn. It makes sense... throwing a grenade is going to take AT LEAST as much time as firing an aimed burst shot.

Grenades are super simple. You pull the pin and hold the handle (spoon) down. As soon as you let go off the spoon the internal fuse lights at that point there is no going back. It WILL blow up in 3 seconds, so you HAVE TO get rid of it, hopefully by tossing at the enemy. So, more than one mode is a bit out there. You'd have to be nearly insane to hold onto a grenade to "time it." I actually like how they work in Xenonauts. Demo charges are a lot more complicated and you can pretty much time them however you want just like in the game.

A couple facts about grenades: They really don't have enough explosive charge to "blow up" anything very large. The main effect is fragmentation. A car or large trash bin can easily survive a close grenade blast but they will be full of holes. Also, the danger zone around a grenade is much larger than the distance someone can throw one (40m roughly.) So, grenades are always thrown from a location where you can get under cover after the throw (or you throw into a spot that will stop the fragments.) Our Xenonauts are very brave in this regard and they have too good of throwing arms.

The main problem with grenades right now is that you can't toss them over objects including your own cover. It's a bug that will be fixed. I'm sure you can see how much more useful they will be when that is done.

Edited by StellarRat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmmmm speaking of grenades. Flares. I hate them. Why? Because they light up the map whether or not its in FOW - thing is, you don't actually see it so if there's an alien there you won't know until get LOS. Problem is, theres no way to tell if you have LOS since its already lit up......Flares should just extend view range in that area NOT light up the map as if it was in view when its not because it makes night maps superbly hellish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope there is just a problem with light sources in general at the moment. Upon starting an alien base I can see into about half the rooms due to their being light sources in them that I can already see, even if I can't see into the room.

Slightly related, anyone know why some of the doors in the alien base "jam" shut? I mean they can be blown down... but I'm wondering if the aliens can hold them shut or if they get shot and jam... or what.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Svid, I'm not sure exactly what's going on with alien base doors, but I know what you're talking about.

It seems like they're essentially being destroyed by fire but it bugs and instead of being destroyed OPEN they get destroyed CLOSED. Maybe it actually is intentional, to simulate jamming shut, but I've never seen it anywhere but alien bases, soooo...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure the alien's 'guess' mechanic is a good idea. Aliens fire accurately from extreme ranges, and with the power of their weapons even a single hit is deadly.

It makes maps like desert and arctic extremely painful due to the lack of cover and wide firelanes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure the alien's 'guess' mechanic is a good idea. Aliens fire accurately from extreme ranges, and with the power of their weapons even a single hit is deadly.

It makes maps like desert and arctic extremely painful due to the lack of cover and wide firelanes.

If Chris would implement my accuracy formula that silliness would be gone. <hint, hint, nudge, nudge, wink, wink>
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...