Waladil Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Using the dev mode I discovered the following tidbits: The "alien-view mode" only has a LOS equal to that of what I set in aiprops (hence why Chris reported that they couldn't repro it). Notably, on that same view, all actors were visible even if the tile beneath them wasn't -- related? Just part of the dev mode? However, I gave them a few more APs (40, exactly enough to fire one burst) and they did fire on targets outside of their nominal LOS. Also, they always seemed to end their turn with exactly 20 TUs (the amount needed for a plasma pistol snapfire) completely regardless of what they did during the turn: I watched one fire a burst, then uncrouch, and he indicated having 20 more TUs with which to reaction fire. Assuming they're playing using the same TU system we are, it seems highly unlikely that EVERY alien would end EVERY turn with EXACTLY 20 TUs. Not 21, or 22 ever -- just 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omots Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 I JUST HAD AN EPIPHENY! I bet the aliens are moving back to better cover AFTER they fire at you! Remember, they have quite a few TUs, so they can fire and move just like the Xenonauts. So, the sight range is right, they're just taking advantage of the slight amount of difference between distances we can see them at! The solution is to show them when the fire and which way they move for just a second afterwards! Or alternatively give them less sight range or TUs. Any counting of range HAS TO be done on a alien that can't move to be valid. Why didn't I think of this! I frequently hear alien steps after they fire, maybe it's them moving back. That's real common tactic I use and it's used IRL too. Run out of cover, fire, and get back under cover. If aliens even have ONE tile advantage in spotting range this becomes a VERY good tactic for them to use. They can move up, see you, and fire without receiving reaction fire from your point man then retreat back to safety. Try tossing some smokers into the LOF then move up. I've sometimes wondered if the aliens have moved to new positions after firing at my troops from inside FOW. But in Waladil's video, if the point of origin (inside FOW) of the alien energy bolts is an accurate indication of the Caesan's location at the time he's firing, then, IMHO he doesn't appear to have moved after firing. This would put him 22 tiles from the troops at which he appears to be firing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightgemini Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Seems clear AI is using some preset/hardcoded numbers for its working. Maybe its like this for testing purposes and its not been cleaned for "fair play" just yet. But the firing at targets beyond sight range is clearly a bug or a leftover that shouldnt be here now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskandar Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Also, they always seemed to end their turn with exactly 20 TUs (the amount needed for a plasma pistol snapfire) completely regardless of what they did during the turn: I watched one fire a burst, then uncrouch, and he indicated having 20 more TUs with which to reaction fire. Assuming they're playing using the same TU system we are, it seems highly unlikely that EVERY alien would end EVERY turn with EXACTLY 20 TUs. Not 21, or 22 ever -- just 20. Oh hey, I betcha I know what is going on here. Somewhere the aliens are checking to make sure they have enough TUs to reaction fire. I'm willing to bet someone screwed up a bit and instead of comparing current TUs versus TUs needed to reaction fire, they are instead SETTING current TUs to the TUs needed to reaction fire. Depending on what language the game is programmed in, this is both an easy bug to make, and a pain to track down. (IIRC, as it has been a while, in C/C++ is is the difference between x = y and x == y) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Oh hey, I betcha I know what is going on here. Somewhere the aliens are checking to make sure they have enough TUs to reaction fire. I'm willing to bet someone screwed up a bit and instead of comparing current TUs versus TUs needed to reaction fire, they are instead SETTING current TUs to the TUs needed to reaction fire. Depending on what language the game is programmed in, this is both an easy bug to make, and a pain to track down. (IIRC, as it has been a while, in C/C++ is is the difference between x = y and x == y) It could be that too. Chris will have answers for us in a few hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 Thanks for all the digging, fellas. I've forwarded GJ this thread and asked him to look into it. We were puzzled because we were trying to fix the game mechanics and couldn't find anything wrong...but it seems the issues are in the AI instead. Hopefully we can get it fixed today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 Incidentally, has anyone had any crashes? Is it just the AI that is a bit of a problem in the build? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 EDIT 3: Suppressed my own troops with flashbangs. They lost 1/2 their AP next turn from suppression all right. Suppression damage also seems borked: Like I mentioned above, I suppressed a Caesan with a single rifle round but a few turns later a flashbang at his feet did not suppress (even though the weapons_gc file indicates that a rifle bullet has a suppression value of 40 while a flashbang has a suppression value of 100). After I eventually killed him, I flashbanged my own troops to test. It took two flashbangs to suppress two of the five troops I had standing right next to each other. What was the range the flashbang as thrown at? If it uses the same mechanic as normal weapons then throwing at anything outside of the weapons range would generate no suppression, regardless of where the grenade lands. I think that range is still set to 10 tiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Hi guys - can you move any discussion of the ground combat rebalance to this thread. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijs-Jan Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 So.. I think I have to do a mea culpa for both the sight bug and the overload on TUs! The sight bug was a combination of two things: - A small bug in the AI in which the engagement distance was used for detection instead of the actual maximum sight. - The introduction of a probabilistic system which tries to estimate where your squad members are; which was set far too aggressive. The overload on TU's was due to me forgetting to remove a debug line which gave units on the map some TU's for a movement scenario I was testing. The scenario was removed; but the circumstances under which the units gained TU's wasn't. All should be well again in the upcoming patch. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raziel1981 Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Great news GJ, finally these two bugs can be stomped good and for all time. Amen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megajoel Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 It's happening! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashman Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Ok i might be able to try the game again Quick battle was whooping my ass so I cant test any maps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathra Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Huzzah and cromulence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waladil Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Yay! And it turns out that the pet theories put together by some of the people in this thread were right! Which just kind of feels good, not really a long-term benefit. Oh, and Gauddilike: When I stopped to test it it was at a range of like 4 tiles or so. Close enough that the person throwing it was caught in the blast. But when I threw it at the alien... yeah, that was over 10 tiles I think. It suppressed fine at range in the last version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenstill Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 When will the next MAC update be released? Just asking' Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 Steven - hopefully we'll send the next Mac build off to be ported either today or tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightgemini Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Glad we were not really far off in nailing down what the problems were. Its nice that the problems have been identified quickly, thank you . Chris, as for crashes I did have none the game runs fine so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightzy Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 I've had one crash when right-clicking on a soldiers assault rifle in the loadout screen but other than that nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightzy Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 cant wait for the hotfix.... I really wanna get into this game already (waiting) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 Should be out in the next hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenstill Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Thanks a bunch for the heads up! I am loving the current Mac build (100's of crashes and all) and look forward to making it to that island of less-crashing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 The PC version works pretty well in Wine from what I understand, if you get too impatient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijs-Jan Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Yay! And it turns out that the pet theories put together by some of the people in this thread were right! Which just kind of feels good, not really a long-term benefit. Keep the theories coming! At the very least it gives me a general direction to aim at when going bug hunting ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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